J
jrq
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
java我还没有开始学呢～～
为什么我老是步后尘？
为什么我老是步后尘？
N
niexq
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是不是见者有分啊？
其实讨论这个问题是很无聊地~~~~~~~~，管他什么语言，学好了都有前途！
其实讨论这个问题是很无聊地~~~~~~~~，管他什么语言，学好了都有前途！
S
sonymusic
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
> niexq 在 2002-1-30 15:05:35 提供了如下回答, 请您查阅和评估:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> 是不是见者有分啊？
>
> 其实讨论这个问题是很无聊地~~~~~~~~，管他什么语言，学好了都有前途！
太同意了。快给分吧。
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> 是不是见者有分啊？
>
> 其实讨论这个问题是很无聊地~~~~~~~~，管他什么语言，学好了都有前途！
太同意了。快给分吧。
大
大头猫
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我也有点迷茫！
C
chenzhongshan
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老话题了，如果java没前途了,那微软还推出visual studio.net 有屁用。[
]
]
C
cfx
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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
C
chenzhongshan
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谁能说他精通java了.hehe
T
taozhiyu
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no
K
kai2001xp
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管它什么XP，JAVA我一定会学的，谁也阻止不了！[
!]
!]
A
Alongsun
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http://www.delphibbs.com/delphibbs/dispq.asp?lid=894197
广州开PARTY，当然费用是我出了，让大家都来玩，交流程序后，我们去泡温泉！
我想，我们可以开个PARTY，当然费用是我出了，让大家都来玩，交流程序后，我们
去温泉泡泡身，让以往的不悦与烦恼统统净化。。。。。。
我的QQ： 65466700
我的MAIL：Alongsun@sina.com
对了抱名方式表格：
（＊^_^＊）
姓名： 中文：______ 英文：_______
手机： ______________
呼机：_______________
商务通：_____________________
QQ：______________________
MAIL：__________________
随行人员：_____________
大家快点报名呀！
晚了没有的玩了！
广州开PARTY，当然费用是我出了，让大家都来玩，交流程序后，我们去泡温泉！
我想，我们可以开个PARTY，当然费用是我出了，让大家都来玩，交流程序后，我们
去温泉泡泡身，让以往的不悦与烦恼统统净化。。。。。。
我的QQ： 65466700
我的MAIL：Alongsun@sina.com
对了抱名方式表格：
（＊^_^＊）
姓名： 中文：______ 英文：_______
手机： ______________
呼机：_______________
商务通：_____________________
QQ：______________________
MAIL：__________________
随行人员：_____________
大家快点报名呀！
晚了没有的玩了！
左
左轻侯
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
研究了一段时间之后，全面转向java
留贴纪念
留贴纪念
曹
曹晓钢
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好！左轻侯你有MSN吗？
左
左轻侯
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
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我有一个msn，但我从来就没开过
呵呵，不过能联系上曹兄还是值得的
qinghou@163.com
要不你先来封信，咱们约个时间聊聊
呵呵，不过能联系上曹兄还是值得的
qinghou@163.com
要不你先来封信，咱们约个时间聊聊
Z
zhaohai9
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大侠都转行了，我们菜鸟也跟着转吗？天天跟着你们跑，真累啊。
T
taozhiyu
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问题：.Net, Java or Delphi? ( 积分：1, 回复：14, 阅读：206 )
分类：前沿技术 ( 版主：robertcool, honghs )
来自：房客, 时间：2002-1-30 15:38:00, ID：895601 [显示：小字体 | 大字体]
.Net, Java or Delphi?
This is a response I gave to Mr. Angel Rosario, Jr. on borland.public.delphi.non-technical in regards of his concerns about the "best tool for the job".I wanted to include it in here for further reference.
"I will give you my personal point of view on the matter based on my history
and the things I have seen around me.
It is a difficult time but is possible to make technological decisions
*today*, that may turn good regardless of what is gonna happen. I made mine
and I will try to explain the whats and whys.
It's not easy to decide where to go and which boat to jump on. Neither one
of the two parties, Microsoft or Linux (let's put the others aside for a
second) are sure winners and I am not sure we should even attempt to predict
who will be the one at this point.
On this newsgroup the merits and the pitfalls of both have been discussed to
the extreme. Stability, scalability, speed, cost, etc etc etc have been the
heart of discussions for months in the non-tech.
Problem is that where the market will go is not about the most scalable or
stable system. It is about the perception the community has about that and
the services that it offers. The one that willdo
minate in this two matters,
will probably be the real winner but this won't mean the other will
disappear.
The first concept (perception) is the heart of publicity and propaganda and
is the most important.
The second (services) backs the first up but is not a lead factor.
Consider what happened around us in our field in the past few years, and
then
look at history.
Windows 95 has taken the desktop, Office has become the fact the business
application suite everybody uses and finally Internet Explorer has won the
browser war with the 85% of installed and used browsers.
Has those products been an example of quality? I wouldn't say so, definitely
at the begin
ning. But even if they weren't, they had something to offer and
for sure they are not as bad as today's arguments make them appear. At least
they delivered a service and in order todo
that, they took advantage of a
favorable perception that Microsoft generated around them.
There are many reasons behind what happened but thedo
minant is the
perception users have. AOL has become what it is for the same reasons.
Napster is not a real piece of art either but still, through perception and
services has became so strong to deserve to be world wide news when things
started to go bad.
History is made by 2000 years of examples of this pattern that drove masses
to any kind of things, good and bad.
This really took more lines than what I was originally thinking and I
probably have gone tangents...
Why I said what I said? Because at the end, no tool is gonna be so unique
and revolutionary to be the one and only one. Is not like the movie
Highlander. At the end, there will be more than one <G>
You mentioned Design Patterns and UML... That made me smile, because the
selling reasons behind VB, .Net and Delphi are everything but things like
that. The promise is about a RAD tool trough which you can develop your
applications in less than 15 minutes, not a tool that allows you to apply
design patterns, object oriented architectures and things like that. Is all
about the perception of faster time to market, which is wrongfully
associated with OnClicks.
Now, having RAD environments is a great thing. No questions about it. The
problem is that this allowed the spread of all kind of bad results around
us. This is not Delphi's fault but the user's. In the case of VB is a little
different but still the concept applies to some degree. Many people wouldn't
have that much of a problem moving their code if they would have followed
the rules.
A few months ago we had to decide if we wanted to use Delphi or Visual Basic
for our development. The main reason behind this question was that since we
are almost 90% Microsoft based, then
why shouldn't we go all the way? Well,
I tell you what: at the time .Net was one of the decisional points of
sticking to Delphi.
VB changed a lot in version 7. The kind of changes that have been made are
more important than abandoning a set of components or introducing new ones.
The changes affected the language in itself: things that are today present
in every OO language such as real inheritance and OO capabilities, were not
present in VB6 and would have led to a corrupted design. Code is easy to change,
if things aredo
ne properly. Architectures are not.
In an ideal world, design would probably take 70% of the time while
implementation is just a mundane and repetitive task. Changing the second
should be easy, changing the first, most likely leads to disasters.
So we choose to Delphi because everything wedo
today (architecture wise)
are portable to .Net, Java or whatever in the future, in case we need to. I
will probably embrace .Net in the future. It has a lot to offer and I can
guarantee that I'd love todo
that having Delphi as underlying language. But
this reallydo
esn't matter much.
Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.
I use SOAP today. I have webservices regardless of Microsoft (although I use
their SOAP toolkit since mine is not finished yet <G>). We are developing a
system that is scalable, well designed and efficient in Delphi using
Microsoft technologies and I can assure you that the majority of the things
we aredo
ing, are gonna stay the same even if we move to .Net. The
architecture is what really matters, not the tool you use to achieve the
result (take out from this VB6 and previous, PowerBuilder and a few other
languages).
Don't get fooled by perception, in either way. There's a lot of good stuff
in .Net as well in Delphi or Java and there are things that should bedo
ne
better in all of them. Focus on the services they offer. See how you can
improve on what they offer if you need to. Borrow ideas from the others
because even if they are very similar, they are not the same.
Good luck"
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-1-30 16:02:00, ID：895678 | 编辑
不愧是大师级的人物！看问题就是透彻！
就好像我们老是以前更我们所高级程序员一样的，他说作为一个高级程序员，不应疲于应付
不同语言的相异之处，因为语言的本身都是相同的。我想老师的话和上面的一样的道理。
我觉得初学者的确应该来看看着篇文章，把心沉下来好好学习，别担心borland会垮台什么的。
1+1=2这个表达式使用vj,vc,vb,delphi,cb,pb,java等等都可以写出来，关键的问题是你是否
知道1+1=？
我想看完这篇文章我也更坚定了学好delphi的信心了！只是一门语言，一个工具，一个语言工具。
更重要的是原理性的知识必须掌握，抓住这个根本才是最重要的。另一个方面我想做好项目管理
，做好软件工程的事情也是很重要的，编码，其次！
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-1-30 16:06:00, ID：895692 | 编辑
同志们记住：
Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.
来自：honghs, 时间：2002-2-1 9:47:00, ID：899942
好
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 14:03:00, ID：900723 | 编辑
建议 房客 同志翻译一下！
来自：jrq, 时间：2002-2-1 14:07:00, ID：900736
我收藏了～
但是最好有那位翻译一下！我E文差， 看着费劲～
：D
来自：xdzhan, 时间：2002-2-1 15:06:00, ID：900900
说来说去一句话:选择Delphi没错！
(take out from this VB6 and previous, PowerBuilder and a few other
languages).我翻译：让VB6和VB.NET,PowerBuilder和其他的语言都见鬼去吧！[]
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 15:12:00, ID：900915 | 编辑
大哥！不要误导大家好不好！人家可不是这个意思吧！
来自：zhaohai9, 时间：2002-2-1 15:18:00, ID：900928
头大。
来自：javaasp, 时间：2002-2-1 15:31:00, ID：900983
我建议看不懂的不要附庸风雅，
还是自己踏踏实实的学习的好
来自：snjat, 时间：2002-2-1 15:37:00, ID：901000
只要能理解这个意思就好。
我们学的是编程方法或是思想，不是编程工具。
任何事务，都是一通百通的。
来自：曹晓钢, 时间：2002-2-1 16:17:00, ID：901129
赫赫。可是这个不能类推得太远。
为什么大家有了Windows 95,还要windows XP?为什么有了office 97还要office XP??
为什么有了BASIC还要有Delphi?
为什么有了Delphi还要有Java?
来自：expect, 时间：2002-2-1 16:18:00, ID：901131
我觉得初学者的确应该来看看着篇文章，把心沉下来好好学习，别担心borland会垮台什么的。
1+1=2这个表达式使用vj,vc,vb,delphi,cb,pb,java等等都可以写出来，关键的问题是你是否
知道1+1=？
我不赞成这位仁兄说的，
首先，为什么会有这么多的语言出现，因为他们有区别，同样是解决一个问题，
不同的语言会有不同的效果。
其次，目前来说，我认为vb和其他语言有一个很大的不同点，其他语言是面向对象的。
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 16:54:00, ID：901251 | 编辑
我想着篇文章对于不同的朋友有不同的意义。
对于初学者来说，看了这篇文章就应该知道，学习编程语言只是一个方面，更应该注重学习原理知识。举个例子。
上个月我记得有个朋友问什么是保留字！我想这个朋友就没学过编译原理。什么是保留字？vc,vb,java,pb,delphi
。。。。。都有保留字，问这个问题是否能够证明有些朋友就是在一个很低的层次上面再学习语言，连保留字是
什么都不知道！就好像老外说的“Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.” 我就说，你管什么vc,vb,java,pb,delphi是什么啊！学好编译原来再说！
对于那些在彷徨是否选择delphi的朋友来说，应该知道无论你选择什么，都能够达到里的目的，只不过方式
，过程，与效果存在差异。我记得我的老师说过，不要担心borland垮台什么的，即使哪一天borland跨了，必定有
公司出来收购它，因为borland的技术是优秀的！我自己认为，就算那天delphi从这个世界上面消失了，只要我
知道为什么，那么就算让我用vc来做事情，照样得心应手！因为他们的核心是一样的，表现法是不一样！
我选delphi不后悔！因为我看了vc就烦！
对于曹先生的观点，我认为是属于技术进步的范畴，技术的维护，功能的增加等等，都促使技术的进步，以至于
win31->winme delphi2->delphi6等等！
expect朋友的观点我也赞同，不过我认为您的看问题角度应该修正一下。我当然知道不同的语言有其在某个领域
的开发优势。比如delphi就易于开发数据库，pb也是，vc做底层可以。。。。等等，这个不用我来说。不过我认为
您再说这个时候是从不同语言的不同特性来看问题的。不过请注意那个老外的角度，他脱离了特性，从一个更高的角度
来看待问题，他说“Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.”看到了吗？从本质上来说delphi,vc,pb都是一样的。所以我们应该重视学习
principles，对于不同的语言只不过他们的做法可能更好些，更有效率。只要知道了principles,提高效率
是这个软件工程过程中都要做的事情！！所以，请您换一种角度来看问题！
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 17:24:00, ID：901343 | 编辑
另外我觉得老外提及的微软的成功因素很值得注意。国内重视批评微软的bug如何之多，
我到觉得很像一群小丑在一个巨人阔步前进的时候嘲笑巨人走路的样子是多么的难看！
的确微软做的不错，他在短时间内提供给用户可用的功能，然后不断完善他的产品。也许他
第一时间推出的产品并不是perfect,不过他的产品在完善的整个过程中所用的时间应该是最短的。
就拿网景来说，navigator出现一个bug网景可能要几个星期做个patch,而微软可能是几天。
（具体的时间我不知道，总之，微软做出修补的速度是惊人的！）我想短时间内提供丰富的功能
、服务，而在出现问题后及时改正，这正是他成功之处。
记得DFW朋友“莫知”对我说过一个故事，他写程序是如果碰到一个问题，他一定要找一个
最好的解决方案才肯动手，结果一个程序很长时间才做出来。而他的另外一个朋友，不管3721，
写上一个代码，把功能作上去，等到以后友好算法在补上去。莫知说，他觉得这办法不错，
自己也要改改编程方式了。
我想大家是否也能得到一点启示呢？
分类：前沿技术 ( 版主：robertcool, honghs )
来自：房客, 时间：2002-1-30 15:38:00, ID：895601 [显示：小字体 | 大字体]
.Net, Java or Delphi?
This is a response I gave to Mr. Angel Rosario, Jr. on borland.public.delphi.non-technical in regards of his concerns about the "best tool for the job".I wanted to include it in here for further reference.
"I will give you my personal point of view on the matter based on my history
and the things I have seen around me.
It is a difficult time but is possible to make technological decisions
*today*, that may turn good regardless of what is gonna happen. I made mine
and I will try to explain the whats and whys.
It's not easy to decide where to go and which boat to jump on. Neither one
of the two parties, Microsoft or Linux (let's put the others aside for a
second) are sure winners and I am not sure we should even attempt to predict
who will be the one at this point.
On this newsgroup the merits and the pitfalls of both have been discussed to
the extreme. Stability, scalability, speed, cost, etc etc etc have been the
heart of discussions for months in the non-tech.
Problem is that where the market will go is not about the most scalable or
stable system. It is about the perception the community has about that and
the services that it offers. The one that willdo
minate in this two matters,
will probably be the real winner but this won't mean the other will
disappear.
The first concept (perception) is the heart of publicity and propaganda and
is the most important.
The second (services) backs the first up but is not a lead factor.
Consider what happened around us in our field in the past few years, and
then
look at history.
Windows 95 has taken the desktop, Office has become the fact the business
application suite everybody uses and finally Internet Explorer has won the
browser war with the 85% of installed and used browsers.
Has those products been an example of quality? I wouldn't say so, definitely
at the begin
ning. But even if they weren't, they had something to offer and
for sure they are not as bad as today's arguments make them appear. At least
they delivered a service and in order todo
that, they took advantage of a
favorable perception that Microsoft generated around them.
There are many reasons behind what happened but thedo
minant is the
perception users have. AOL has become what it is for the same reasons.
Napster is not a real piece of art either but still, through perception and
services has became so strong to deserve to be world wide news when things
started to go bad.
History is made by 2000 years of examples of this pattern that drove masses
to any kind of things, good and bad.
This really took more lines than what I was originally thinking and I
probably have gone tangents...
Why I said what I said? Because at the end, no tool is gonna be so unique
and revolutionary to be the one and only one. Is not like the movie
Highlander. At the end, there will be more than one <G>
You mentioned Design Patterns and UML... That made me smile, because the
selling reasons behind VB, .Net and Delphi are everything but things like
that. The promise is about a RAD tool trough which you can develop your
applications in less than 15 minutes, not a tool that allows you to apply
design patterns, object oriented architectures and things like that. Is all
about the perception of faster time to market, which is wrongfully
associated with OnClicks.
Now, having RAD environments is a great thing. No questions about it. The
problem is that this allowed the spread of all kind of bad results around
us. This is not Delphi's fault but the user's. In the case of VB is a little
different but still the concept applies to some degree. Many people wouldn't
have that much of a problem moving their code if they would have followed
the rules.
A few months ago we had to decide if we wanted to use Delphi or Visual Basic
for our development. The main reason behind this question was that since we
are almost 90% Microsoft based, then
why shouldn't we go all the way? Well,
I tell you what: at the time .Net was one of the decisional points of
sticking to Delphi.
VB changed a lot in version 7. The kind of changes that have been made are
more important than abandoning a set of components or introducing new ones.
The changes affected the language in itself: things that are today present
in every OO language such as real inheritance and OO capabilities, were not
present in VB6 and would have led to a corrupted design. Code is easy to change,
if things aredo
ne properly. Architectures are not.
In an ideal world, design would probably take 70% of the time while
implementation is just a mundane and repetitive task. Changing the second
should be easy, changing the first, most likely leads to disasters.
So we choose to Delphi because everything wedo
today (architecture wise)
are portable to .Net, Java or whatever in the future, in case we need to. I
will probably embrace .Net in the future. It has a lot to offer and I can
guarantee that I'd love todo
that having Delphi as underlying language. But
this reallydo
esn't matter much.
Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.
I use SOAP today. I have webservices regardless of Microsoft (although I use
their SOAP toolkit since mine is not finished yet <G>). We are developing a
system that is scalable, well designed and efficient in Delphi using
Microsoft technologies and I can assure you that the majority of the things
we aredo
ing, are gonna stay the same even if we move to .Net. The
architecture is what really matters, not the tool you use to achieve the
result (take out from this VB6 and previous, PowerBuilder and a few other
languages).
Don't get fooled by perception, in either way. There's a lot of good stuff
in .Net as well in Delphi or Java and there are things that should bedo
ne
better in all of them. Focus on the services they offer. See how you can
improve on what they offer if you need to. Borrow ideas from the others
because even if they are very similar, they are not the same.
Good luck"
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-1-30 16:02:00, ID：895678 | 编辑
不愧是大师级的人物！看问题就是透彻！
就好像我们老是以前更我们所高级程序员一样的，他说作为一个高级程序员，不应疲于应付
不同语言的相异之处，因为语言的本身都是相同的。我想老师的话和上面的一样的道理。
我觉得初学者的确应该来看看着篇文章，把心沉下来好好学习，别担心borland会垮台什么的。
1+1=2这个表达式使用vj,vc,vb,delphi,cb,pb,java等等都可以写出来，关键的问题是你是否
知道1+1=？
我想看完这篇文章我也更坚定了学好delphi的信心了！只是一门语言，一个工具，一个语言工具。
更重要的是原理性的知识必须掌握，抓住这个根本才是最重要的。另一个方面我想做好项目管理
，做好软件工程的事情也是很重要的，编码，其次！
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-1-30 16:06:00, ID：895692 | 编辑
同志们记住：
Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.
来自：honghs, 时间：2002-2-1 9:47:00, ID：899942
好
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 14:03:00, ID：900723 | 编辑
建议 房客 同志翻译一下！
来自：jrq, 时间：2002-2-1 14:07:00, ID：900736
我收藏了～
但是最好有那位翻译一下！我E文差， 看着费劲～
：D
来自：xdzhan, 时间：2002-2-1 15:06:00, ID：900900
说来说去一句话:选择Delphi没错！
(take out from this VB6 and previous, PowerBuilder and a few other
languages).我翻译：让VB6和VB.NET,PowerBuilder和其他的语言都见鬼去吧！[
]来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 15:12:00, ID：900915 | 编辑
大哥！不要误导大家好不好！人家可不是这个意思吧！
来自：zhaohai9, 时间：2002-2-1 15:18:00, ID：900928
头大。
来自：javaasp, 时间：2002-2-1 15:31:00, ID：900983
我建议看不懂的不要附庸风雅，
还是自己踏踏实实的学习的好
来自：snjat, 时间：2002-2-1 15:37:00, ID：901000
只要能理解这个意思就好。
我们学的是编程方法或是思想，不是编程工具。
任何事务，都是一通百通的。
来自：曹晓钢, 时间：2002-2-1 16:17:00, ID：901129
赫赫。可是这个不能类推得太远。
为什么大家有了Windows 95,还要windows XP?为什么有了office 97还要office XP??
为什么有了BASIC还要有Delphi?
为什么有了Delphi还要有Java?
来自：expect, 时间：2002-2-1 16:18:00, ID：901131
我觉得初学者的确应该来看看着篇文章，把心沉下来好好学习，别担心borland会垮台什么的。
1+1=2这个表达式使用vj,vc,vb,delphi,cb,pb,java等等都可以写出来，关键的问题是你是否
知道1+1=？
我不赞成这位仁兄说的，
首先，为什么会有这么多的语言出现，因为他们有区别，同样是解决一个问题，
不同的语言会有不同的效果。
其次，目前来说，我认为vb和其他语言有一个很大的不同点，其他语言是面向对象的。
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 16:54:00, ID：901251 | 编辑
我想着篇文章对于不同的朋友有不同的意义。
对于初学者来说，看了这篇文章就应该知道，学习编程语言只是一个方面，更应该注重学习原理知识。举个例子。
上个月我记得有个朋友问什么是保留字！我想这个朋友就没学过编译原理。什么是保留字？vc,vb,java,pb,delphi
。。。。。都有保留字，问这个问题是否能够证明有些朋友就是在一个很低的层次上面再学习语言，连保留字是
什么都不知道！就好像老外说的“Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.” 我就说，你管什么vc,vb,java,pb,delphi是什么啊！学好编译原来再说！
对于那些在彷徨是否选择delphi的朋友来说，应该知道无论你选择什么，都能够达到里的目的，只不过方式
，过程，与效果存在差异。我记得我的老师说过，不要担心borland垮台什么的，即使哪一天borland跨了，必定有
公司出来收购它，因为borland的技术是优秀的！我自己认为，就算那天delphi从这个世界上面消失了，只要我
知道为什么，那么就算让我用vc来做事情，照样得心应手！因为他们的核心是一样的，表现法是不一样！
我选delphi不后悔！因为我看了vc就烦！
对于曹先生的观点，我认为是属于技术进步的范畴，技术的维护，功能的增加等等，都促使技术的进步，以至于
win31->winme delphi2->delphi6等等！
expect朋友的观点我也赞同，不过我认为您的看问题角度应该修正一下。我当然知道不同的语言有其在某个领域
的开发优势。比如delphi就易于开发数据库，pb也是，vc做底层可以。。。。等等，这个不用我来说。不过我认为
您再说这个时候是从不同语言的不同特性来看问题的。不过请注意那个老外的角度，他脱离了特性，从一个更高的角度
来看待问题，他说“Doesn't matter if it is called ADO, JDBC, ODBC or BDE... The principles
behind them are the same.”看到了吗？从本质上来说delphi,vc,pb都是一样的。所以我们应该重视学习
principles，对于不同的语言只不过他们的做法可能更好些，更有效率。只要知道了principles,提高效率
是这个软件工程过程中都要做的事情！！所以，请您换一种角度来看问题！
来自：taozhiyu, 时间：2002-2-1 17:24:00, ID：901343 | 编辑
另外我觉得老外提及的微软的成功因素很值得注意。国内重视批评微软的bug如何之多，
我到觉得很像一群小丑在一个巨人阔步前进的时候嘲笑巨人走路的样子是多么的难看！
的确微软做的不错，他在短时间内提供给用户可用的功能，然后不断完善他的产品。也许他
第一时间推出的产品并不是perfect,不过他的产品在完善的整个过程中所用的时间应该是最短的。
就拿网景来说，navigator出现一个bug网景可能要几个星期做个patch,而微软可能是几天。
（具体的时间我不知道，总之，微软做出修补的速度是惊人的！）我想短时间内提供丰富的功能
、服务，而在出现问题后及时改正，这正是他成功之处。
记得DFW朋友“莫知”对我说过一个故事，他写程序是如果碰到一个问题，他一定要找一个
最好的解决方案才肯动手，结果一个程序很长时间才做出来。而他的另外一个朋友，不管3721，
写上一个代码，把功能作上去，等到以后友好算法在补上去。莫知说，他觉得这办法不错，
自己也要改改编程方式了。
我想大家是否也能得到一点启示呢？
曹
曹晓钢
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
taozhiyu楼上的话中，其实有很多东西并没有在房客转贴的那篇帖子中提到。
原来的帖子的中心应该是
The first concept (perception) is the heart of publicity and propaganda and
is the most important.
The second (services) backs the first up but is not a lead factor.
这里，作者的讨论是超脱了具体的语言之上的。对开放和传道的理解是第一位的，服务
位于第二位。正是这两者才真正的你的job起决定作用。
然后作者举MS的例子说明office ,windows的深入人心正是因为MS抓住了这两点。事实上
当其他竞争者在取笑MS的产品的时候，MS在对用户需求的感觉和服务上都做对了。
包括VB这样的RAD的成功也说明了MS对时机的把握是正确的。
那么在这篇文章里，关于技术的事情提到了什么呢？什么都没有。他举ADO,BDE什么的例子
都是为了着重说明技术本身不会对理解和服务这两个成功的主要因素造成困扰。
事实上，我对于任何技术都不反感，我并不是支持delphi大于VB或者java大于C#的观点。
但是，如果在充分理解和作者的两个主要因素的前提下，你仍然需要选择能够更好的贯彻
你的编程思想和为用户服务的语言或者平台。
在我看来，Java代表着一种梦想，一种单纯的思维。我认为这种单纯的思维本身也是非常
美妙而有力的。C#也是一样。所以选择Java和C#,或者说选择java VM或者.NET,就是
个人喜好和商业因素的共同作用了。选择任何一个都不会对理解用户和服务用户本身产生
特殊的影响。
现在OO的观点早已深入人心，VB.NET已经和VB6几乎毫无关系了，那么，MS
现在又站在了正确的队伍里面了。为什么我们写自己的程序来继续发扬光大OO的思想，
而要花时间争论到底是java好还是c#好呢？
关于taozhiyu 楼上帖子中的管理的问题，仿照原文
The architecture is what really matters, not the tool you use to achieve the
result的说法，同样的我们也可以说， The management is what really matters,
not the man or tool you used to achieve the result。
这一点上中国的软件产业是一个薄弱环节。
可以说大富翁练功场就是试图改善这个薄弱环节的一次努力吧。
BTW:to taozhiyu ,我不是先生，说yysun是先生还差不多 我才25.
讨论问题，大家不用这么客气了 ^_^
原来的帖子的中心应该是
The first concept (perception) is the heart of publicity and propaganda and
is the most important.
The second (services) backs the first up but is not a lead factor.
这里，作者的讨论是超脱了具体的语言之上的。对开放和传道的理解是第一位的，服务
位于第二位。正是这两者才真正的你的job起决定作用。
然后作者举MS的例子说明office ,windows的深入人心正是因为MS抓住了这两点。事实上
当其他竞争者在取笑MS的产品的时候，MS在对用户需求的感觉和服务上都做对了。
包括VB这样的RAD的成功也说明了MS对时机的把握是正确的。
那么在这篇文章里，关于技术的事情提到了什么呢？什么都没有。他举ADO,BDE什么的例子
都是为了着重说明技术本身不会对理解和服务这两个成功的主要因素造成困扰。
事实上，我对于任何技术都不反感，我并不是支持delphi大于VB或者java大于C#的观点。
但是，如果在充分理解和作者的两个主要因素的前提下，你仍然需要选择能够更好的贯彻
你的编程思想和为用户服务的语言或者平台。
在我看来，Java代表着一种梦想，一种单纯的思维。我认为这种单纯的思维本身也是非常
美妙而有力的。C#也是一样。所以选择Java和C#,或者说选择java VM或者.NET,就是
个人喜好和商业因素的共同作用了。选择任何一个都不会对理解用户和服务用户本身产生
特殊的影响。
现在OO的观点早已深入人心，VB.NET已经和VB6几乎毫无关系了，那么，MS
现在又站在了正确的队伍里面了。为什么我们写自己的程序来继续发扬光大OO的思想，
而要花时间争论到底是java好还是c#好呢？
关于taozhiyu 楼上帖子中的管理的问题，仿照原文
The architecture is what really matters, not the tool you use to achieve the
result的说法，同样的我们也可以说， The management is what really matters,
not the man or tool you used to achieve the result。
这一点上中国的软件产业是一个薄弱环节。
可以说大富翁练功场就是试图改善这个薄弱环节的一次努力吧。
BTW:to taozhiyu ,我不是先生，说yysun是先生还差不多
我才25. 讨论问题，大家不用这么客气了 ^_^
S
sonymusic
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
> 来自：ngkai, 时间：2002-1-14 9:41:00, ID：855361
> 我的几点看法：
> 1、JAVA是支持OOP的，同时也是限制你只能用OOP的，就语言角度来说太死板了点。
这种说法可是糟糕至极的。确切的说，OOP只是一种思想而已，而且更加的符合人类的
思维，相对于面向过程的编程方法来说，无疑是一种进步，总不能到了遍地是汽车的
时候，你还要说，“汽车固然是不错的，但没有牛车似乎也不大妥当吧。”？
> 2、JAVA的慢是有目共睹的，所以现在的JAVA应用大部分在服务端。
这种慢其实只是图形界面慢而已。要知道即使是C++，如果真正的采用OOP来编程的话，
速度只怕不会比Java快到哪里去（当然我也是说服务器端）。
> 4、在商业上IBM，SUN大力推JAVA，一是Application Server可以有高额利润；二是为
> 了对抗M$。
同样的话，调转枪口对于M$也是成立的哦。
> 有没有前途，是一个无法回答的问题。几年前的Foxpro，当时有人认为是有还是没有呢？
是啊，俱往亦，数风流语言不知道是谁！单从语言角度来说，我觉得C++和Java都有资格啦。
总的来说，我觉得是没有必要讨论前途（或钱途）的问题。在适当的场合用适当的技术，
自己再有适当的水平，自然会赚到适当的钱，得到适当的前途。
BTW: 曹晓钢，25就不是先生，是小姐了？哈哈！
> 我的几点看法：
> 1、JAVA是支持OOP的，同时也是限制你只能用OOP的，就语言角度来说太死板了点。
这种说法可是糟糕至极的。确切的说，OOP只是一种思想而已，而且更加的符合人类的
思维，相对于面向过程的编程方法来说，无疑是一种进步，总不能到了遍地是汽车的
时候，你还要说，“汽车固然是不错的，但没有牛车似乎也不大妥当吧。”？
> 2、JAVA的慢是有目共睹的，所以现在的JAVA应用大部分在服务端。
这种慢其实只是图形界面慢而已。要知道即使是C++，如果真正的采用OOP来编程的话，
速度只怕不会比Java快到哪里去（当然我也是说服务器端）。
> 4、在商业上IBM，SUN大力推JAVA，一是Application Server可以有高额利润；二是为
> 了对抗M$。
同样的话，调转枪口对于M$也是成立的哦。
> 有没有前途，是一个无法回答的问题。几年前的Foxpro，当时有人认为是有还是没有呢？
是啊，俱往亦，数风流语言不知道是谁！单从语言角度来说，我觉得C++和Java都有资格啦。
总的来说，我觉得是没有必要讨论前途（或钱途）的问题。在适当的场合用适当的技术，
自己再有适当的水平，自然会赚到适当的钱，得到适当的前途。
BTW: 曹晓钢，25就不是先生，是小姐了？哈哈！
V
VRGL
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
Java guru: C# misses the point
By Wylie Wong
News.com
January 22, 2002
Java inventor James Gosling says he isn't losing much sleep over
Microsoft these days, despite the software giant's effort to stem
Java's popularity with its own Java-like language.
The next battle in Web services software development pits Microsoft
against Java creator Sun Microsystems, along with Java adherents IBM,
Oracle and others. Crucial to Microsoft's effort is C#, a Java-like
language that will soon be part of the company's new Visual Studio.Net
package of software-development tools, which was released to
developers Wednesday.
"The trite answer is, 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery--
thank you very much,'" he said this week. "But the other answer is,
'You guys (at Microsoft) stilldo
n't get it,' because it's sort of
Java with reliability, productivity and security deleted."
In an interview with CNET News.com, Gosling dissects C#, discusses
Java's popularity and explains what it's like to be a "superstar."
Q: Whydo
you say Microsoft's C# is Java without the reliability,
productivity or security?
A: You find stuff in it that has essentially loopholes for everything.
They had this problem in their design rules that they had to support
C and C++, which means you have to have a memory model where you can
access everything at all times. It's the existence of those loopholes
that is the source of security, reliability and productivity problems
for developers. So on the one hand, they copied Java, and on the other
hand, they added gratuitous things and other things that are outright
stupid. That's amusing.
We were panicked (about C#) a while ago. And we've gotten somewhat more
relaxed about it. It's certainly something to be concerned about,
given the amount of resources Microsoft can bring to bear. But I've
had conversations with developers. It has not been that big an issue
with developers. It's actually been much more a public relations issue
than a reality issue.
Where is the growth in Java development? Is it still mostly on the
server side? What about the desktop?
It's both. You can't actually separate them because these networks
that we're building are a bunch of things that communicate and are
interdependent. Anytime someone builds a little application that runs
on a cell phone, there's something that goes on the server. It's kind
of like saying, "Is the blood pumping in your left arm or your right
arm?" It's both.
Wireless has been very active because it's been particularly sexy. But
desktop stuff has huge activity too. I suspect the amount of activity
on the desktop is much huger than what's going on in wireless. You
see peopledo
ing Java-based internal applications all over the place,
regular desktop applications that are sort of front-ends to the things
in the back, or standalone things.
The level of activity is just amazing;
it's like every year I think
it's going to slowdo
wn. The Java world has just been accelerating,
and it's amazing how essentially anywhere there is a digital system,
there's someone building something in it with Java. It's become this
development environment and tool that gives you the unifying
framework that colors everything, from supercomputers to smart cards.
What projects are you working on now for Sun?
For me, (inventing) Java is 10 years ago, so I decided a couple of
years ago, it's time to get on with my life. So I went back to the
research lab at Sun, and lately I've been on a developer-tool project.
There aren't a lot of people building IDEs (integrated development
environments). And IDEs are generally targeted at low-end developers
--people who are not experts at writing code. And if you look for
tools that are oriented toward (those) people, you basically find
nothing. The No. 1 tool (in that area) is Emacs, and I was kind of
the guy responsible for the original Emacs, 23 years ago. One of the
things I find frightening is it's still around, and in many ways it
hasn't really changed. Is that the best you cando
for a (low-end)
developer? Ido
n't think so.
We have a development (tool) called NetBeans that Sun bought. It was
architected from the begin
ning to be a framework. It's a flexible
system we open sourced a year and a half ago. And so I'm building a
plug-in for NetBeans.
IBM created its own open-source project called Eclipse, which aims
to integrate Java development tools so a software developer can
choose tools from different software makers, plug them together, and
have them work together. While nearly every toolmaker has joined the
Eclipse project, Sun hasn't--and IBM executives have complained about
that. What's going on?
NetBeans is very much like Eclipse. They said we were being bad
because we didn't join Eclipse. But they didn't even ask us. We didn't
find out about it until they announced it. It's been a little weird.
To us, Eclipse feels like something very "me too" and derivative,
backed up by a really strange marketing campaign.
Do you see the two open-source projects coming together?
They may. I mean, I'm sure there're people looking at what it will
take. It's hard to tell how these things go. The important thing is
to come up with a common set of APIs (application programming
interfaces). We've been working on APIs for the last year and a half.
It would have been nice if IBM had actually joined into our
open-source effort that's been going on for a very long time.
Microsoft is making aggressive moves on the Web services front.
There's some talk that Java is trailing in the Web services game,
since the Java supporters, through the Java Community Process, won't
come up with a Web services standards until later this year. Your
thoughts?
We get asked about slowness a lot. I've made the comment that
democracies work slower than dictatorships. That's a true thing. One
of the key aspects of Web services is that it's all about cooperation.
So if you are building a standard airline reservation system you have
to get Travelocity, Orbitz and Expedia into a room, and they have to
agree on a common schema in the Extensible Markup Language (XML)
world for describing what is a flight and what is a request for a
flight. One could try to dictate to the airline industry what all
their reservation systems should look like, but they would not be
real happy about that. Ido
n't think that would be successful, because
Web services is inherently about cooperating, so there has to be some
kind of democratic process.
When you try to get Visa, MasterCard, Citibank and American Express,
and the list of people in the Liberty Alliance (to create a standard
for an authen
tication service over the Web), getting them to agree
is going to be hard. But they are actually committed to agreeing. They
understand they have their own agendas, but to further their own
personal agendas they have to cooperate. So they are actuallydo
ing
some good work.
The last time we interviewed you, about four years ago, you mentioned
that when you made public appearances at conferences, Java developers
always asked you for your autograph. Are you still treated like a
superstar, and if so, howdo
es it feel to still evangelize Java?
It's flattering. Just before Christmas, I signed a T-shirt while the
person was wearing it. Someone had an ink marker and asked, "Can you
sign my laptop?" I signed the laptop cover. It's mostly (signing)
pieces of paper.
I enjoy evangelizing Java. In my heart of hearts, I'm an engineer,
and what makes me happy is building something that works and having
someone use it. That's cool. But when evangelism takes over my life,
which it did, life becomes unpleasant. For a while, I was (focusing
on the evangelism) for medical reasons, because I had really bad
carpal tunnel and RSI problems (and couldn't use a keyboard). And a
couple of years ago, I went through a bunch of surgeries and it was
like magic. I could work again. I've had a lot of fun since then
.
By Wylie Wong
News.com
January 22, 2002
Java inventor James Gosling says he isn't losing much sleep over
Microsoft these days, despite the software giant's effort to stem
Java's popularity with its own Java-like language.
The next battle in Web services software development pits Microsoft
against Java creator Sun Microsystems, along with Java adherents IBM,
Oracle and others. Crucial to Microsoft's effort is C#, a Java-like
language that will soon be part of the company's new Visual Studio.Net
package of software-development tools, which was released to
developers Wednesday.
"The trite answer is, 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery--
thank you very much,'" he said this week. "But the other answer is,
'You guys (at Microsoft) stilldo
n't get it,' because it's sort of
Java with reliability, productivity and security deleted."
In an interview with CNET News.com, Gosling dissects C#, discusses
Java's popularity and explains what it's like to be a "superstar."
Q: Whydo
you say Microsoft's C# is Java without the reliability,
productivity or security?
A: You find stuff in it that has essentially loopholes for everything.
They had this problem in their design rules that they had to support
C and C++, which means you have to have a memory model where you can
access everything at all times. It's the existence of those loopholes
that is the source of security, reliability and productivity problems
for developers. So on the one hand, they copied Java, and on the other
hand, they added gratuitous things and other things that are outright
stupid. That's amusing.
We were panicked (about C#) a while ago. And we've gotten somewhat more
relaxed about it. It's certainly something to be concerned about,
given the amount of resources Microsoft can bring to bear. But I've
had conversations with developers. It has not been that big an issue
with developers. It's actually been much more a public relations issue
than a reality issue.
Where is the growth in Java development? Is it still mostly on the
server side? What about the desktop?
It's both. You can't actually separate them because these networks
that we're building are a bunch of things that communicate and are
interdependent. Anytime someone builds a little application that runs
on a cell phone, there's something that goes on the server. It's kind
of like saying, "Is the blood pumping in your left arm or your right
arm?" It's both.
Wireless has been very active because it's been particularly sexy. But
desktop stuff has huge activity too. I suspect the amount of activity
on the desktop is much huger than what's going on in wireless. You
see peopledo
ing Java-based internal applications all over the place,
regular desktop applications that are sort of front-ends to the things
in the back, or standalone things.
The level of activity is just amazing;
it's like every year I think
it's going to slowdo
wn. The Java world has just been accelerating,
and it's amazing how essentially anywhere there is a digital system,
there's someone building something in it with Java. It's become this
development environment and tool that gives you the unifying
framework that colors everything, from supercomputers to smart cards.
What projects are you working on now for Sun?
For me, (inventing) Java is 10 years ago, so I decided a couple of
years ago, it's time to get on with my life. So I went back to the
research lab at Sun, and lately I've been on a developer-tool project.
There aren't a lot of people building IDEs (integrated development
environments). And IDEs are generally targeted at low-end developers
--people who are not experts at writing code. And if you look for
tools that are oriented toward (those) people, you basically find
nothing. The No. 1 tool (in that area) is Emacs, and I was kind of
the guy responsible for the original Emacs, 23 years ago. One of the
things I find frightening is it's still around, and in many ways it
hasn't really changed. Is that the best you cando
for a (low-end)
developer? Ido
n't think so.
We have a development (tool) called NetBeans that Sun bought. It was
architected from the begin
ning to be a framework. It's a flexible
system we open sourced a year and a half ago. And so I'm building a
plug-in for NetBeans.
IBM created its own open-source project called Eclipse, which aims
to integrate Java development tools so a software developer can
choose tools from different software makers, plug them together, and
have them work together. While nearly every toolmaker has joined the
Eclipse project, Sun hasn't--and IBM executives have complained about
that. What's going on?
NetBeans is very much like Eclipse. They said we were being bad
because we didn't join Eclipse. But they didn't even ask us. We didn't
find out about it until they announced it. It's been a little weird.
To us, Eclipse feels like something very "me too" and derivative,
backed up by a really strange marketing campaign.
Do you see the two open-source projects coming together?
They may. I mean, I'm sure there're people looking at what it will
take. It's hard to tell how these things go. The important thing is
to come up with a common set of APIs (application programming
interfaces). We've been working on APIs for the last year and a half.
It would have been nice if IBM had actually joined into our
open-source effort that's been going on for a very long time.
Microsoft is making aggressive moves on the Web services front.
There's some talk that Java is trailing in the Web services game,
since the Java supporters, through the Java Community Process, won't
come up with a Web services standards until later this year. Your
thoughts?
We get asked about slowness a lot. I've made the comment that
democracies work slower than dictatorships. That's a true thing. One
of the key aspects of Web services is that it's all about cooperation.
So if you are building a standard airline reservation system you have
to get Travelocity, Orbitz and Expedia into a room, and they have to
agree on a common schema in the Extensible Markup Language (XML)
world for describing what is a flight and what is a request for a
flight. One could try to dictate to the airline industry what all
their reservation systems should look like, but they would not be
real happy about that. Ido
n't think that would be successful, because
Web services is inherently about cooperating, so there has to be some
kind of democratic process.
When you try to get Visa, MasterCard, Citibank and American Express,
and the list of people in the Liberty Alliance (to create a standard
for an authen
tication service over the Web), getting them to agree
is going to be hard. But they are actually committed to agreeing. They
understand they have their own agendas, but to further their own
personal agendas they have to cooperate. So they are actuallydo
ing
some good work.
The last time we interviewed you, about four years ago, you mentioned
that when you made public appearances at conferences, Java developers
always asked you for your autograph. Are you still treated like a
superstar, and if so, howdo
es it feel to still evangelize Java?
It's flattering. Just before Christmas, I signed a T-shirt while the
person was wearing it. Someone had an ink marker and asked, "Can you
sign my laptop?" I signed the laptop cover. It's mostly (signing)
pieces of paper.
I enjoy evangelizing Java. In my heart of hearts, I'm an engineer,
and what makes me happy is building something that works and having
someone use it. That's cool. But when evangelism takes over my life,
which it did, life becomes unpleasant. For a while, I was (focusing
on the evangelism) for medical reasons, because I had really bad
carpal tunnel and RSI problems (and couldn't use a keyboard). And a
couple of years ago, I went through a bunch of surgeries and it was
like magic. I could work again. I've had a lot of fun since then
.
J
jrq
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
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wukw
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
通篇看了，谁对谁错，有点头晕。
各位大侠，小弟想说一下我辈菜鸟们的悲哀：
都说学一门语言是学它的思想，都说每一个程序最重要的是它的核心算法。
嗯，这两点小弟同意。
可是您知不知道，要把每一门语言成功编译一个HelloWorld就要花相当的精力去学会配置编程环境。
熟悉它的Java类库、控件又要花多少时间？同时没有一点经验与技巧，能做东西吗？
3个月一门语言不算太慢吧！可是仅仅是入门啊！那天有人告诉我，××语言没人用了，做项目要用××语言，
这样学到何时是一个尽头啊！除了编程，我们还有很多事要做啊！
你把你的Delphi核心算法翻译成 Java，要花多少时间！数据类型不一样，函数用法不一样，编程框架不一样，
算法复杂一点的话，累死你也翻译不出来。甚至由于数据类型的不一样，你有可能要重新设计算法！
所以，学语言只看重算法和思想，有失偏颇。
学一门新的语言真的很累很累的，不熟悉它的类库，你能做东西吗？
各位大侠，小弟想说一下我辈菜鸟们的悲哀：
都说学一门语言是学它的思想，都说每一个程序最重要的是它的核心算法。
嗯，这两点小弟同意。
可是您知不知道，要把每一门语言成功编译一个HelloWorld就要花相当的精力去学会配置编程环境。
熟悉它的Java类库、控件又要花多少时间？同时没有一点经验与技巧，能做东西吗？
3个月一门语言不算太慢吧！可是仅仅是入门啊！那天有人告诉我，××语言没人用了，做项目要用××语言，
这样学到何时是一个尽头啊！除了编程，我们还有很多事要做啊！
你把你的Delphi核心算法翻译成 Java，要花多少时间！数据类型不一样，函数用法不一样，编程框架不一样，
算法复杂一点的话，累死你也翻译不出来。甚至由于数据类型的不一样，你有可能要重新设计算法！
所以，学语言只看重算法和思想，有失偏颇。
学一门新的语言真的很累很累的，不熟悉它的类库，你能做东西吗？