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acockburn对bucolic说: then
some paper prototyping, or programming prototyping, so give them and me some feedback ...(10:26)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how can you evaluate a good UC or bad UC?(10:26)
se_cn对acockburn说: hello(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... as to what they just asked for, so see if that's what they want.(10:26)
bucolic对acockburn说: acceptance tests, it means I have implemented the requirements? then
customer make a acceptance test(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, we havedo
ne some requirements, some UI design, some program design.(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: Once the users are happy, both the UI designer and the programmer have a lot of work todo
...(10:27)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... so the user can move onto specifying another part of the system with another pair of people.(10:27)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see. But I know many UCs is not useful for Design. how can we avoid that?(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: Detailed design happens once the program designer gets serious about making the design work.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: You can either throw the prototypes away - if they were no good, or keep them, if they are good.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: A use case is finished in one of two ways, depending on a small project.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: For a small, local project, it is finished - no matter how messy it is - when everyone understands what it is trying to express.(10:29)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: about the detail level for a UC, can you give me a suggestion?(10:29)
fuzhong对acockburn说: When you think about the OO,youdo
not think about the programing language?Sorry,i'm pool in English.(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: On a large, complicated project (military, some financial instutions), it is finished when(10:29)
kt133对acockburn说: what the sequence diagram shoulddo
properly?And not too detail?(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: A) the list of use case names list all the goals the users have(10:29)
bucolic对acockburn说: if separate the UI designer and system designer ,howdo
they work it smoothly?(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: B) each use case captures all the error conditions that can arise during its operation.(10:30)
fuzhong对acockburn说: If someone is not skill in program language,can he design with OO?(10:30)
bucolic对acockburn说: the list inculde the stakeholder's requests?(10:30)
acockburn对bucolic说: You need as many use cases as there are desires the users have for the system. Exactly that many.(10:30)
acockburn对bucolic说: How many is that? Well, different for different systems. 20 or 70 is OK. I worked on one with 200.(10:31)
acockburn对bucolic说: I know people who have worked on some systems with 1,000 (yikes!)(10:31)
ee96pyg对大家说: Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system?(10:31)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah ,in fact , the error condition can be list completly.(10:31)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: : Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system(10:32)
bucolic对acockburn说: sorry can't list(10:32)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Let's leave use cases for a little while. You have the book online there.(10:32)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the user case's granularity is good? thank you.(10:32)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then
begin
another?(10:32)
acockburn对fuzhong说: TOPIC, OO DESIGN: It is actually hard to design without knowing the OO language.(10:32)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then
begin
another?((10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: I program in Smalltalk, and some amount in C++, and not much in Java, and not at all in CLOS.(10:33)
unlchina对大家说: finish the meeting, everyone(10:33)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Why?(10:33)
umlchina对大家说: unlchina is not umlchina, please(10:33)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, the use cases's amount is relative with the code of line?(10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: My can design a good Smalltalk design, a medium C++ design, a mediocre Java design and a crummy CLOS design.(10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: It is like building a building with different materials.(10:34)
acockburn对fuzhong说: If you know how to work with bricks or with concrete and steel.(10:34)
nix00000对acockburn说: Please answer my question.(10:34)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if I develop a software product, the requirment is from myself or my knowledge. at this situation, how about the UC?(10:34)
acockburn对fuzhong说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different.(10:34)
hacker_jiang对大家说: whydo
es nobody speak?(10:35)
am2000对大家说: ??(10:35)
xkfy对acockburn说: can you comment at the project management in the ERP(10:35)
hdw1978对acockburn说: so one must master many language to deal with all kinds of projects?(10:35)
fuzhong对acockburn说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different??(10:35)
fuzhong对acockburn说: What is the materials ?(10:36)
acockburn对nix00000说: NIX - we spent a lot of time on use cases.... now let's talk about design for a bit.(10:36)
bucolic对acockburn说: and the size of building? I means if smalltalk can make a huge system, but other language can't?(10:36)
kt133对acockburn说: but how to use uml to design the project using jsp,php...these b/s ?(10:36)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Buildings... please look around your city. Some buildings are brick, some wood, some concrete, steel and glass.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Their shapes are quite different.(10:37)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I see.(10:37)
nix00000对acockburn说: Ok, go on, I am just watching.(10:37)
bucolic对acockburn说: or if can builder , but it's not as robust as smalltalk?(10:37)
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: I am a begin
ner of UML.Ido
not know how and when todo
from analysis to design.what should ido
?Can you help me?i see my question is very fool,but i need..(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: In fact the very possibility of what shape building you can build depends very much on what material you choose to use.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Similarly, scuptors use different materials: clay, stone, others.(10:38)
hdw1978对acockburn说: I think java is the material that can build everything(10:38)
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone decides to work from a block of marble, they must be very careful to arrange the weight and thickness carefully,(10:38)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: I want to know which fields the ideas of use case have come from.(10:38)
acockburn对fuzhong说: so that the piece holds together.(10:38)
bucolic对acockburn说: if I use a robust meterial, the building will be robust. and programing?(10:38)
fuzhong对acockburn说: design can ignore language?(10:39)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when the initial design is finished, progrmmers begin
to code for it. but programmers find many unfitting in design. how can Ido
for that?(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone builds a metal armature or mesh, and then
adds clay to it, they can make many changes very fast, and create completely different shapes with it.(10:39)
bucolic对acockburn说: I means diffenent program language(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: OK, back to software.(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: C++ is a brittle material, like stone.(10:39)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: changed my design or ask programmers change his mind?(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Your class hierarchy has to be carefully desgned. You cannot change it easily.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: There are particular inheritance rules.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: The result is a particular sort of design, very common across C++ programs.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Smalltalk, on the other hand, is like clay - very easy to change.(10:40)
bucolic对acockburn说: which languagedo
you perfer? smalltalk?(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: People who write in Smalltalk changes their designs all the time.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Also, there are few rules about the inheritance hierarchy, so the structure is different.(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Java is a combination of Smalltalk and C++, so the design shape is somewhere in between(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: CLOS has even looser rules that Smalltalk. and so on.(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: This is the long answer to your questions, about "Can someone whodo
esn't know the languagedo
an OO design?"(10:42)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: different language need different design? for example C++ and Java?(10:42)
xiang2ky微笑着对acockburn说: so what about c#?(10:42)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can u tell me how to juge the user case's granularity is best? thank you very much.(10:42)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Good question. All designs have mistakes in them.(10:42)
umlchina对acockburn说: In a visual modeling tool, such as Rational Rose, we can not put the system boundary box on the use-case diagram. system boundary is totally missing from the diagram. Is(10:43)
umlchina对acockburn说: it a right choice?(10:43)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us something about that(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you set up your project team so that a master "designer" makes all the decisions, and a programmer "only" programs them, then
...(10:43)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Thanks.(10:43)
rick1126对大家说: hi, first come here(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: ...the programmer will discover the designer's mistake, but not be able to fix them.(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: For that reason, I prefer to have each person responsible for their own design AND programmintg.(10:44)
bucolic对acockburn说: it means designer shoulddo
some programing?(10:44)
zwweric微笑着对大家说: Could you say something about testing?About Auto-Testing?I'm sorry.My english is pool!(10:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: then
one have two or more role(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: then
, when the programmer finds the design mistake he(she) simply fixes it.(10:45)
bucolic对acockburn说: but how to assure the design of different person work smoothly(10:45)
品雪对acockburn说: would you like tell me why you disagree rational method so much?(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, it means the designer shoulddo
some programming. I have never worked on a project which had a pure "designer" who did not program.(10:45)
dystudy对大家说: How to talk to with uers,I feel trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but that is not accord with the requirement of CMM(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have heard about such projects, but I have not heard good news about such projects.(10:46)
fuzhong对umlchina说: 请你帮忙.有个问题我翻译不出:就是国外在10年或者20年前或者更长时间,软件行业是种什么状况?(10:46)
xkfy对acockburn说: but we need the master(10:46)
bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in a big system it's impossible one people to finish it.(10:46)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: There are just too many strange mistakes to make and it takes the programmer too long to explain them to the designer.(10:46)
some paper prototyping, or programming prototyping, so give them and me some feedback ...(10:26)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how can you evaluate a good UC or bad UC?(10:26)
se_cn对acockburn说: hello(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... as to what they just asked for, so see if that's what they want.(10:26)
bucolic对acockburn说: acceptance tests, it means I have implemented the requirements? then
customer make a acceptance test(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, we havedo
ne some requirements, some UI design, some program design.(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: Once the users are happy, both the UI designer and the programmer have a lot of work todo
...(10:27)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... so the user can move onto specifying another part of the system with another pair of people.(10:27)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see. But I know many UCs is not useful for Design. how can we avoid that?(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: Detailed design happens once the program designer gets serious about making the design work.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: You can either throw the prototypes away - if they were no good, or keep them, if they are good.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: A use case is finished in one of two ways, depending on a small project.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: For a small, local project, it is finished - no matter how messy it is - when everyone understands what it is trying to express.(10:29)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: about the detail level for a UC, can you give me a suggestion?(10:29)
fuzhong对acockburn说: When you think about the OO,youdo
not think about the programing language?Sorry,i'm pool in English.(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: On a large, complicated project (military, some financial instutions), it is finished when(10:29)
kt133对acockburn说: what the sequence diagram shoulddo
properly?And not too detail?(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: A) the list of use case names list all the goals the users have(10:29)
bucolic对acockburn说: if separate the UI designer and system designer ,howdo
they work it smoothly?(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: B) each use case captures all the error conditions that can arise during its operation.(10:30)
fuzhong对acockburn说: If someone is not skill in program language,can he design with OO?(10:30)
bucolic对acockburn说: the list inculde the stakeholder's requests?(10:30)
acockburn对bucolic说: You need as many use cases as there are desires the users have for the system. Exactly that many.(10:30)
acockburn对bucolic说: How many is that? Well, different for different systems. 20 or 70 is OK. I worked on one with 200.(10:31)
acockburn对bucolic说: I know people who have worked on some systems with 1,000 (yikes!)(10:31)
ee96pyg对大家说: Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system?(10:31)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah ,in fact , the error condition can be list completly.(10:31)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: : Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system(10:32)
bucolic对acockburn说: sorry can't list(10:32)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Let's leave use cases for a little while. You have the book online there.(10:32)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the user case's granularity is good? thank you.(10:32)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then
begin
another?(10:32)
acockburn对fuzhong说: TOPIC, OO DESIGN: It is actually hard to design without knowing the OO language.(10:32)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then
begin
another?((10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: I program in Smalltalk, and some amount in C++, and not much in Java, and not at all in CLOS.(10:33)
unlchina对大家说: finish the meeting, everyone(10:33)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Why?(10:33)
umlchina对大家说: unlchina is not umlchina, please(10:33)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, the use cases's amount is relative with the code of line?(10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: My can design a good Smalltalk design, a medium C++ design, a mediocre Java design and a crummy CLOS design.(10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: It is like building a building with different materials.(10:34)
acockburn对fuzhong说: If you know how to work with bricks or with concrete and steel.(10:34)
nix00000对acockburn说: Please answer my question.(10:34)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if I develop a software product, the requirment is from myself or my knowledge. at this situation, how about the UC?(10:34)
acockburn对fuzhong说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different.(10:34)
hacker_jiang对大家说: whydo
es nobody speak?(10:35)
am2000对大家说: ??(10:35)
xkfy对acockburn说: can you comment at the project management in the ERP(10:35)
hdw1978对acockburn说: so one must master many language to deal with all kinds of projects?(10:35)
fuzhong对acockburn说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different??(10:35)
fuzhong对acockburn说: What is the materials ?(10:36)
acockburn对nix00000说: NIX - we spent a lot of time on use cases.... now let's talk about design for a bit.(10:36)
bucolic对acockburn说: and the size of building? I means if smalltalk can make a huge system, but other language can't?(10:36)
kt133对acockburn说: but how to use uml to design the project using jsp,php...these b/s ?(10:36)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Buildings... please look around your city. Some buildings are brick, some wood, some concrete, steel and glass.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Their shapes are quite different.(10:37)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I see.(10:37)
nix00000对acockburn说: Ok, go on, I am just watching.(10:37)
bucolic对acockburn说: or if can builder , but it's not as robust as smalltalk?(10:37)
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: I am a begin
ner of UML.Ido
not know how and when todo
from analysis to design.what should ido
?Can you help me?i see my question is very fool,but i need..(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: In fact the very possibility of what shape building you can build depends very much on what material you choose to use.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Similarly, scuptors use different materials: clay, stone, others.(10:38)
hdw1978对acockburn说: I think java is the material that can build everything(10:38)
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone decides to work from a block of marble, they must be very careful to arrange the weight and thickness carefully,(10:38)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: I want to know which fields the ideas of use case have come from.(10:38)
acockburn对fuzhong说: so that the piece holds together.(10:38)
bucolic对acockburn说: if I use a robust meterial, the building will be robust. and programing?(10:38)
fuzhong对acockburn说: design can ignore language?(10:39)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when the initial design is finished, progrmmers begin
to code for it. but programmers find many unfitting in design. how can Ido
for that?(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone builds a metal armature or mesh, and then
adds clay to it, they can make many changes very fast, and create completely different shapes with it.(10:39)
bucolic对acockburn说: I means diffenent program language(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: OK, back to software.(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: C++ is a brittle material, like stone.(10:39)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: changed my design or ask programmers change his mind?(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Your class hierarchy has to be carefully desgned. You cannot change it easily.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: There are particular inheritance rules.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: The result is a particular sort of design, very common across C++ programs.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Smalltalk, on the other hand, is like clay - very easy to change.(10:40)
bucolic对acockburn说: which languagedo
you perfer? smalltalk?(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: People who write in Smalltalk changes their designs all the time.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Also, there are few rules about the inheritance hierarchy, so the structure is different.(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Java is a combination of Smalltalk and C++, so the design shape is somewhere in between(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: CLOS has even looser rules that Smalltalk. and so on.(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: This is the long answer to your questions, about "Can someone whodo
esn't know the languagedo
an OO design?"(10:42)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: different language need different design? for example C++ and Java?(10:42)
xiang2ky微笑着对acockburn说: so what about c#?(10:42)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can u tell me how to juge the user case's granularity is best? thank you very much.(10:42)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Good question. All designs have mistakes in them.(10:42)
umlchina对acockburn说: In a visual modeling tool, such as Rational Rose, we can not put the system boundary box on the use-case diagram. system boundary is totally missing from the diagram. Is(10:43)
umlchina对acockburn说: it a right choice?(10:43)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us something about that(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you set up your project team so that a master "designer" makes all the decisions, and a programmer "only" programs them, then
...(10:43)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Thanks.(10:43)
rick1126对大家说: hi, first come here(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: ...the programmer will discover the designer's mistake, but not be able to fix them.(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: For that reason, I prefer to have each person responsible for their own design AND programmintg.(10:44)
bucolic对acockburn说: it means designer shoulddo
some programing?(10:44)
zwweric微笑着对大家说: Could you say something about testing?About Auto-Testing?I'm sorry.My english is pool!(10:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: then
one have two or more role(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: then
, when the programmer finds the design mistake he(she) simply fixes it.(10:45)
bucolic对acockburn说: but how to assure the design of different person work smoothly(10:45)
品雪对acockburn说: would you like tell me why you disagree rational method so much?(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, it means the designer shoulddo
some programming. I have never worked on a project which had a pure "designer" who did not program.(10:45)
dystudy对大家说: How to talk to with uers,I feel trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but that is not accord with the requirement of CMM(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have heard about such projects, but I have not heard good news about such projects.(10:46)
fuzhong对umlchina说: 请你帮忙.有个问题我翻译不出:就是国外在10年或者20年前或者更长时间,软件行业是种什么状况?(10:46)
xkfy对acockburn说: but we need the master(10:46)
bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in a big system it's impossible one people to finish it.(10:46)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: There are just too many strange mistakes to make and it takes the programmer too long to explain them to the designer.(10:46)
