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UMLChina第十二期专家交流实录
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北京时间2001年12月15日（星期六）上午10:00-12:00。
嘉宾：Alan Cooper，软件交互设计的先知和传播者，客户咨询公司Cooper Interaction Design的创始人和总裁。成就：
*第一个可视化开发工具Visual Basic的发明者
*经典著作：
The inmates are running the asylum（中文书名：《软件创新之路--冲破高技术营造的牢笼》，翻译: 刘瑞挺 刘强 程岩，电子工业出版社，2001。）；About Face: The Essentials of User Interface Design
*他的公司帮助IBM、3M、Ericsson、Sun、Visa...等客户开发了许多具有市场竞争力的产品。
....
交流重点：软件可用性，交互设计，其它...
主持人：flycat
要更多了解Alan Cooper的思想，请看以下资料：（1）《非程序员》第七期的第一篇文章“交互设计之父Alan Cooper访谈”；（2）去书店买他的著作：《软件创新之路--冲破高技术营造的牢笼》
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
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alancooper进入聊天室.(10:07)
fly cat对大家说: welcome,Mr Alan, thanks you for your time and attention,(10:08)
extreme对大家说: Hi, fly cat, This is the first time for me to take part in such a discussion. I like your name. he he...(10:08)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(10:08)
alancooper对大家说: Hello, this is Alan Cooper.(10:08)
umlchina对大家说: welcome mr. cooper(10:08)
alancooper对大家说: Thank you. I'm very glad to be here(10:08)
extreme对大家说: Hi,Alan, I am extreme.(10:08)
virtinoo进入聊天室.(10:08)
umlchina对大家说: 提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色(10:09)
fly cat对大家说: Mr.alan,most of us were impressed by yourbook <The Inmates are running the asylum>, what's your opion of the book?(10:09)
extreme对大家说: I bought the Chinese version of your book < The inmates are running the asylum >. It is obviously a great book, but I dislike the translation. Ido
n’t think I can buy the(10:09)
virtinoo对大家说: hello everybody.(10:09)
alancooper对大家说: I tried to show another way of thinking about how software should be designed and developed(10:09)
extreme对大家说: English version here in China, so, could you please tell me where I cando
wnload the English version ? Thanks.(10:10)
founder_chen对大家说: Mr.alan ,how to design web-based management tool(10:10)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't think there is any way todo
wnload the whole book, yet(10:10)
alancooper对大家说: "web-based management tool"...to manage what?(10:11)
extreme对大家说: Sorry, I just want to find a way to see the english version.(10:11)
umlchina对大家说: extreme, buy one book from store(10:11)
alancooper对大家说: Can you purchase books from Amazon.com?(10:12)
founder_chen对大家说: such as tmn, service provisioning platform(10:12)
wrymy对alancooper说: maybe to manage a enterprise,like erp,finance or crm(10:12)
yuminghui对alancooper说: Hi, nice to meet you here(10:12)
boss_ch对alancooper说: Mr Alan ,could you please change your color to RED?(10:12)
umlchina对大家说: Mr. cooper, Howdo
you think about the UI of Windows? and compare it with Mac? for the view of interaction design(10:12)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't think it's easy for me Cause Ido
n't have a American credit card(10:13)
alancooper对大家说: I think that the UI of Windows and the UI of the Mac are identical(10:13)
sdr进入聊天室.(10:14)
umlchina对alancooper说: identical-->Good or bad?(10:14)
yuminghui对alancooper说: Lots of college studetns in China just know simple appliations of VB and they think they are top programmer.
(10:14)
alancooper对大家说: Identical good for 1984, old and gray and bald for 2001(10:14)
boss_ch对alancooper说: Howdo
you feel about the UI of Windows XP?(10:15)
alancooper对大家说: "...think they are top programmer..." Same thing in USA(10:15)
wrymy对alancooper说: ido
nt like ui style of windows xp(10:15)
alancooper对大家说: I think the UI of Windows XP is identical to other Windows and Mac(10:16)
yuminghui对alancooper说: ^_^(10:16)
extreme对大家说: It is said C# might replace Visual Basic soon. Whatdo
you think about it, Mr. Cooper ?(10:16)
tipsyy进入聊天室.(10:16)
umlchina对alancooper说: if windows were designed by you, you will....?(10:16)
guodd对大家说: top programmer but not artist?(10:16)
alancooper对大家说: C# looks like a very good language(10:17)
yuminghui对alancooper说: I think C# has too many features like Java, just like another version of Java.(10:17)
fly cat对大家说: you emphasize the important of interaction design,in my opion, it is very useful when the programme need a lot of user-machine interaction, but for the programmes(10:17)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't think that programming is an art. I think it is a craft, like pottery making or glass blowing.(10:17)
fly cat对大家说: such as embedded systems used for real-time monitor and control,do
you think it's(10:17)
fly cat对大家说: still applicable?(10:18)
yuminghui对alancooper说: it is said that young guys, esp those who just begin
to program(10:18)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't think that interaction design is applicable for programmers regardless of what they are writing. Interaction design is for interaction designers.(10:18)
fly cat对大家说: programming is a craft, design is art?(10:19)
alancooper对大家说: design is a craft, too.(10:19)
yuminghui对alancooper说: they should not use language like VB or tools like some UML tools at first(10:19)
extreme对大家说: What kind of background or knowledge basedo
you think is needed for a good interaction designer , Mr. Cooper ?(10:19)
alancooper对大家说: Good programmers can program independent of ANY language(10:20)
yuminghui对alancooper说: they should be nailed to use C/C++. may i have your opinions?(10:20)
fl_xyg进入聊天室.(10:20)
dboy.huang对alancooper说: Whatdo
you think about Java EJB?(10:20)
alancooper对大家说: Good interaction designers need to be trained in interaction design methods(10:20)
extreme对大家说: Say, paiting or art ?(10:21)
tipsyy对alancooper说: please, howdo
you think the framework of .net and the internet OS(10:21)
alancooper对大家说: Art plays almost no role in any aspect of software design or development(10:21)
sdr对alancooper说: which toolsdo
you choose between Rational suite and Ms visio(10:21)
shenqw对大家说: interaction designers needs knowing programming?(10:21)
greatfox进入聊天室.(10:21)
fly cat对大家说: which background is most important for interantion designer? technical or marketing?(10:22)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers need to know what is IMPORTANT to programmers, but theydo
n't need to know how to program.(10:22)
alancooper对大家说: "technical or marketing": Neither. Interaction design is a profession of its own.(10:22)
hdw1978进入聊天室.(10:22)
wrymy对alancooper说: now fashion to devlope on web,eg. normal html,xml,etc.. but we offten found that to design a friedly ui is so hard on web,specially when u design a enterprise system(10:23)
wrymy对alancooper说: the control on the web is so hard(10:23)
wrymy对alancooper说: to immplement when the control is very complex(10:23)
extreme对大家说: I guess, he might need to know something about the psychology , right ?(10:23)
alancooper对大家说: "control on the web is so hard" : that is SO TRUE!!(10:23)
yuminghui对alancooper说: In my opinion, I think it is sense of marketing and operation skills of marketing that decide the percepective of some software because I am major in marketing ＾＿＾(10:23)
umlchina对大家说: Mr. cooper, Can you introduce some good tools on Interaction Design?(10:23)
shenqw对大家说: but the interaction designers how to know that they should put what on the screen?(10:24)
guodd对大家说: How to become a designer from a programmer? Which kind of books may help?(10:24)
alancooper对大家说: "psychology": Interaction designers must know what is IMPORTANT to psychologists.(10:24)
penghongjie进入聊天室.(10:24)
hdj0569进入聊天室.(10:24)
yuminghui对alancooper说: so the boss needs to hire psychology major in the team?(10:25)
alancooper对大家说: "...put what on the screen?" the same way that programmers know what code to put in the editor.(10:25)
xmlone进入聊天室.(10:25)
wrymy对alancooper说: so if u have some suggest on the design of web(10:25)
alancooper对大家说: "...hire psychology...": No, just the opposite. Hire interaction designer so theydo
n't have to hire psychology majors.(10:25)
alancooper对大家说: Psychology majors CAN'T DESIGN interaction(10:26)
alancooper对大家说: "suggest...design of web": Yes, put all interaction on one page.(10:26)
extreme对大家说: So, what should hedo
if one guy want to become a interaction designer ?(10:26)
alancooper对大家说: "...to become interaction designer?": stop programming.(10:27)
fly cat对大家说: it seemed i that i have read your book ,but haven't grasp the soul(10:27)
yuminghui对alancooper说: "psychology major and read " should be "can read"(10:27)
extreme对大家说: Why to stop programming ?(10:28)
alancooper对大家说: "...interface...user friendly": interaction design is not the same thing as interface design.(10:28)
alancooper对大家说: "Why stop programming?": Because the goals of programmers and designers are in conflict. You can'tdo
both at the same time.(10:28)
extreme对大家说: So, I have no chance to become a interaction desinger, cause I like programmign so much.(10:29)
fly cat对大家说: Mr.cooper, can you briefly express the soul of interaction design?(10:29)
alancooper对大家说: If you like programming so much, why would you WANT to be an interaction designer?(10:29)
umlchina对alancooper说: "programmers and designers are in conflict", but they are all in a team?(10:29)
developerly进入聊天室.(10:30)
hdj0569对alancooper说: hi,I encounter this problem: I want to send the video on the monitor of one computer (computer A) to another one (computer B),(10:30)
alancooper对大家说: "...soul of interaction design?": Making the technology serve the users, instead of making the users serve technology.(10:30)
hdj0569对alancooper说: making the two videos of A and B are exactly the same. The video signal will be transferred in the real time.(10:30)
yuminghui对alancooper说: i cannot agree with you more(10:30)
extreme对大家说: Yes, as umlchina mentioned, designer and programmer are in one team, that is why have some interst in it.(10:30)
alancooper对大家说: "programmers and designers in conflict": No. The **GOALS** of programmers and desginers are in conflict.(10:31)
loveuml进入聊天室.(10:31)
extreme对大家说: So, whatdo
you think I should know about interaction design, as a programmer or project manager ?(10:32)
yuminghui对alancooper说: May I ask you how about the placement of VB programmer (intermidiate level) in the US? how abouthte average yearly income?(10:33)
lj25进入聊天室.(10:33)
umlchina对alancooper说:do
es a good interaction Designer use any tools? can you introduce one?(10:33)
alancooper对大家说: "...think I should know...": that good interaction designers will be able to convince you why you should follow their design.(10:33)
fly cat对大家说: In your opion, what't the most valuable character of an interaction designer?(10:34)
bungee_jumping对alancooper说: you use UML todo
the interaction design? if youdo
, how todo
it?(10:34)
guodd对大家说:do
you means good interaction designers need more communication skill instead of solid design?(10:34)
alancooper对大家说: "...tools": We use qualitative field research techniques, user modelling methods, design principles, design patterns, and lots of paper and whiteboards.(10:34)
extreme对大家说: But as a project manager without any knowledge, how can i know this guy would lead us to success ?(10:35)
umlchina对alancooper说: so, Any good books in how to make interaction design step by step?(10:35)
boss_ch进入聊天室.(10:35)
boss_ch对alancooper说: Could you give some suggest to web base application interaction designer?(10:35)
alancooper对大家说: "..how can I know...": Yes, how can you know? Can programming knowledge help you? Ido
n't think so.(10:35)
hdj0569对大家说: why?(10:36)
extreme对大家说: So, what can help me ?(10:36)
awcpowerise进入聊天室.(10:36)
alancooper对大家说: "...what can help me?": An interaction designer.(10:36)
fly cat对大家说: then
you are an interaction designer, can you give us some directions now?(10:38)
shenqw对大家说: What kind of people can be an interaction designer? what skill should They have?(10:38)
extreme对大家说: But Ido
n't think it's easy to find a good interaction desinger here in China.(10:38)
wrymy对alancooper说: i think extreme means how he could know the interaction designer make a good design?i want know about it too.(10:39)
alancooper对大家说: It is just as hard to find a good interaction designer as it is to find a good programmer. Anywhere.(10:39)
umler进入聊天室.(10:39)
extreme对大家说: So, as fly cat mentioned, could you give us any directions ?(10:40)
alancooper对大家说: "...how he could know...": Why should the programmer sit in judgment over the interaction designer?(10:40)
hdw1978对alancooper说: INSPIRATION, in most cases, wheredo
you get the inspiration?(10:40)
alancooper对大家说: "INSPIRATION": Wheredo
programmers get inspiration?(10:40)
wrymy对alancooper说: but if i'm a project manager,i must know...(10:40)
alancooper对大家说: Yes, as a project manager, you must know.(10:41)
wrymy对alancooper说: i think extreme want to be a project manager.(10:41)
extreme对大家说: Yes, I gotta know if I were a PROJECT MANAGER.(10:41)
extreme对大家说: Yes, some time in the future.(10:41)
umlchina对alancooper说: Have any good books which can tell us how to make interaction design step by step?(10:42)
fly cat对大家说: i have a feeling, Mr.cooper are stimulate us to found the solution, instead of told us directly(10:42)
alancooper对大家说: "...step by step": not yet, but we are working on one.(10:42)
alancooper对大家说: "...told us directly": Interaction design is NOT an engineering discipline.(10:42)
umlchina对alancooper说: Yes! have you any plan to write a new book?(10:43)
extreme对大家说: So, I suggest Mr. cooper to set up a educaiotn program here in China to give us some training .(10:43)
alancooper对大家说: "...new book?": Two senior designers at Cooper are working on textbook.(10:43)
alancooper对大家说: "...education program in China": That's a good idea.(10:44)
shenqw对大家说: What kind of people can be an interaction designer? what skill should they have?(10:44)
alancooper对大家说: "what skill should they have?": Interaction designers need to be able to visualize complex behavior without actually seeing it.(10:45)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction design must take place before any code is written.(10:45)
fly cat对大家说: But i think it's difficult for the interaction designers to set up their authority if they haven't some successful experience(10:45)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers must be able to IMAGINE what the code willdo
before it is written.(10:45)
extreme对大家说: Can this sort of skill ' to visualize complex behaviouis without actually seeing it" be trained ?(10:46)
alancooper对大家说: "...difficult...to set up authority": That is very true.(10:46)
alancooper对大家说: "...be trained?": Only if you are born with the talent, first.(10:46)
alancooper对大家说: Just like programming can be trained, but only if you are born with the natural talent to program, first.(10:47)
fly cat对大家说: i'm confused(10:47)
greatfox对alancooper说: why?(10:47)
alancooper对大家说: "I'm confused": That is a very good start!(10:47)
extreme对大家说: Yes, so am I. Sort of psychology issue.(10:47)
umlchina对alancooper说: We have read the Chinese version of your "The inmates..." , but another one "about face" is published earlier.do
you think if it should be translated into Chinese now or(10:47)
fly cat对大家说: and then
?(10:48)
umlchina对alancooper说: we should wait for the second edition of "About face"?(10:48)
extreme对大家说: sorry, philosophy , rather than psychology .(10:48)
alancooper对大家说: "and then
?": then
you are ready to learn another very difficult, but very different, skill.(10:49)
fly cat对大家说: but how to?(10:49)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
not understand why an engineer would want to be an interaction designer.(10:49)
alancooper对大家说: Engineers HATE todo
the things that interaction designersdo
.(10:50)
jazy进入聊天室.(10:50)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers deal with humans. Not CPUs and programming languages and operating systems.(10:50)
extreme对大家说: We just want to communicate better with an interaction designer.(10:50)
alancooper对大家说: "...want to communicate...": That's WONDERFUL!!(10:51)
hdw1978离开了聊天室.(10:51)
greatfox对alancooper说: yes,but how can we assort with the programmer&
interaction designer.as a project manager?(10:51)
extreme对大家说: So, we gotta know something about it.(10:51)
品雪进入聊天室.(10:51)
alancooper对大家说: "but how to?": Stop programming. Imagine a user. Design something for him or her.(10:52)
shenqw对大家说: "IMAGINE what the code willdo
before it is written"? --> What code? Program source code? In your option, the Interaction designer must have some programming experience?(10:52)
umlchina对alancooper说: Where the web should go? HTML is not suitable for Interaction design?(10:52)
hzmajw进入聊天室.(10:53)
alancooper对大家说: "...must have some programming experience?": Whydo
you think that is true?(10:53)
fl_xyg进入聊天室.(10:54)
fl_xyg对alancooper说: Sequence Diagram of use case is Design of soft(10:54)
fly cat对大家说: for if hedo
esn't have some programming experience? it's hard for him to let the engineers listen to him(10:54)
adamwu进入聊天室.(10:55)
alancooper对大家说: "...hard for him to let the engineers listen...": You mean that the engineers won't listen to an interaction designer? Why not?(10:55)
fl_xyg对alancooper说: Sequence Diagram of use case is Design of soft?(10:55)
alancooper对大家说: "Sequence Diagram": I think this is a tool for programmers.(10:56)
hzmajw对大家说: can artist act as interaction designer(10:56)
agan01进入聊天室.(10:56)
hzmajw对大家说: or can office assistant artist act as interaction designer(10:56)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction design is not art.(10:57)
hzmajw对大家说: why(10:57)
alancooper对大家说: Can office assistant write code?(10:57)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction design is just as complex, sophisticated, and difficult as writing code is.(10:57)
fly cat对大家说: Before the interaction designer set up his authority, it's really very hard. being a good programmer first is one way to set up his authority, also self confidence(10:57)
jazy对大家说: because here's a lot of engineers care about coding more than customer's need(10:58)
hzmajw对大家说: i always think that it's too bad programmer to act as interaction designer(10:58)
alancooper对大家说: "...being a good programmer first...": Why should the interaction designer have to prove himself to the programmer? Whydo
esn't the programmer have to(10:58)
alancooper对大家说: prove himself to the interaction designer?(10:58)
kenxia进入聊天室.(10:58)
bobar进入聊天室.(10:59)
hzmajw对大家说: programmer is just to implement the function or procedure,just code deigner,not interaction designer(10:59)
shenqw对大家说: OK, The interactiondo
es't need some programming experience, But how the Interaction designer can IMAGINE what the code willdo
before it is written?(10:59)
extreme进入聊天室.(11:00)
stevenend进入聊天室.(11:00)
jazy对hzmajw说: it's besed on ur aim:coding for urself or other people?(11:00)
hzmajw对大家说: system designer ,interaction designer,code desinger must be three actors(11:00)
fly cat对大家说: but in reality world, this just exists(11:00)
alancooper对大家说: "...how...IMAGINE?": That's what interaction designersdo
. If **YOU** can'tdo
it, then
you are not an interaction designer.(11:00)
siyul进入聊天室.(11:00)
alancooper对大家说: "..this just exists.": And it is my job to change reality.(11:01)
fly cat对大家说: but how to(11:01)
developerly对大家说: Before you became a designer, were you everdo
ing some coding work?(11:01)
alancooper对大家说: "were you everdo
ing some coding work?": Only for about 15 years.(11:01)
extreme对大家说: Whao! Only 15 year !(11:02)
fly cat对大家说: in my opion, you also need to set up your authority by being the father of VB(11:02)
alancooper对大家说: I coded the visual part of visual basic.(11:02)
umlchina对developerly说: Mr. Cooper designed the VB(11:02)
extreme对大家说: and VB is so well-known and popular.(11:03)
developerly对大家说: So,do
you think your experiences of coding ever help you with the designing later?(11:03)
hzmajw对大家说: so the client programn(11:03)
alancooper对大家说: At my company, we have forty interaction designers. None of them writes code. All of them visualize what the behavior of code will be.(11:03)
umlchina对大家说: VB is a revolution(11:03)
extreme对大家说: so, how can you let us believe a good desinger need to know nothign about programming .(11:03)
kenxia对大家说: But I think VB is not suitable for designing large projet.(11:04)
alancooper对大家说: Many of Cooper's designers have never written a single line of code.(11:04)
alancooper对大家说: VB is not a design tool.(11:04)
hzmajw对大家说: so the client program is just face, hart is over there,the server compenent(11:04)
alancooper对大家说: "...client program is just face...": That is rarely true.(11:05)
umlchina对alancooper说: Have any tool ONLY for interaction design?(11:05)
alancooper对大家说: "...tool...for interaction design?": Yes, but not one made out of software.(11:05)
hzmajw对大家说: so client program is just loooking art(11:06)
extreme对大家说: I get confused.(11:06)
greatfox对alancooper说: me too(11:06)
umlchina对alancooper说: 'not one made out of software"?(11:06)
extreme对大家说: no software tools for design ?(11:06)
powertoy进入聊天室.(11:06)
fly cat对大家说: it seems a good programmer could hardly be a good interaction designer.(11:06)
alancooper对大家说: ***The questions you are asking me sound just like the questions programmers in California asked me about 6 years ago.(11:07)
alancooper对大家说: "...good programmer...good interaction designer": Why would he want to be?(11:07)
umlchina对alancooper说: ??(11:07)
extreme对大家说: That's why we come here to listen to some ideas(11:08)
alancooper对大家说: "...why we come here...": I really appreciate your participation and the quality of your interest.(11:08)
umlchina对alancooper说: Neither artist, nor programmer, To develop a new position is so hard(11:09)
alancooper对大家说: "...new position is so hard.": Yes, that is true. We have alreadydo
ne it.(11:09)
umlchina对alancooper说: We need more book(11:09)
fly cat对大家说: In china, the idea path for a programmer is coding->designing->leading(11:09)
umlchina对alancooper说: step by step, tobe educated(11:10)
developerly进入聊天室.(11:10)
developerly对大家说: why a programmer want to be a good interaction designer,the reason I think is because they want to try more or they can program a software with good face(11:10)
alancooper对大家说: "coding-->designing-->leading": I think this is not correct.(11:10)
umlchina对alancooper说: More and more people know interaction design(11:10)
extreme对大家说: So, is your idea about the path ?(11:10)
developerly对大家说: so what you think is correct?(11:10)
alancooper对大家说: It should be junior coder-->coder-->senior coder(11:10)
alancooper对大家说: junior designer-->designer-->senior designer(11:10)
alancooper对大家说: junior leader-->leader-->senior leader(11:11)
alancooper对大家说: Programmers generally make low quality designers and low quality leaders.(11:11)
extreme对大家说: You mean a project manager can know nothing abuot the programming ?(11:11)
hzmajw对大家说: yes,(11:11)
umlchina对alancooper说: but no junior architect?(11:11)
developerly对大家说: if a coder want to be a leader,how can hedo
?(11:11)
alancooper对大家说: All job titles are confused and confusing.(11:12)
jazy对大家说: i think u mean that interaction designers charge of expressing,and programmers charge of logical,nothing will be welldo
ne whithout either part(11:12)
alancooper对大家说: "i think u mean...expressing...logical...": I think that is correct.(11:12)
alancooper对大家说: "nothing will be welldo
ne without either part": YES, YES, YES!!!!!(11:12)
hzmajw对大家说: everybody should think which actor he would be ,just as he(11:13)
hzmajw对大家说: like(11:13)
developerly对大家说: I've catch your mean(11:13)
hzmajw对大家说: when he have the aim,he will be good at his job(11:14)
fly cat对大家说: so most of us have to follow the path junior coder-->coder-->senior coder(11:14)
extreme对大家说: but some time the boss need you to become a project manager, what should youdo
?(11:15)
alancooper对大家说: People who really LOVE to code, are really GOOD at coding, and they should continue to code. It would be a waste todo
otherwise.(11:15)
hzmajw对大家说: if u want to be coder,then
step and step, deep into the code world(11:15)
kenxia对大家说: How to become a good designer.(11:15)
alancooper对大家说: "but some time boss need you...": Boss should go back to coding.(11:15)
developerly对大家说: heheh(11:15)
alancooper对大家说: heheh!(11:16)
umlchina对alancooper说: Which mobile phone are better from you interaction design view? Motolora, Nokia, Ericsson?(11:16)
extreme对大家说: But you become one famous interaction designer now,do
es it mean youdo
n't like programing any more ?(11:16)
virtinoo进入聊天室.(11:16)
alancooper对大家说: "which mobile phone?": I think they all suck.(11:16)
hzmajw离开了聊天室.(11:17)
alancooper对大家说: "...don't like programming any more?": I like it, but I'm not good enough at it anymore.(11:17)
umlchina对alancooper说: BUT....They are all fool?(11:17)
umlchina对alancooper说: And microsoft,IBM?(11:18)
extreme对大家说: That's sort of pity for the programmer community.(11:18)
sdr离开了聊天室.(11:18)
fly cat对大家说: but in my opion, when we are young, we like todo
something as coding, to realize something, then
we have more experience, it's naturally for us want todo
some design(11:18)
umlchina对alancooper说: the same as?(11:18)
wh7577进入聊天室.(11:19)
alancooper对大家说: "young...coding...more experience...design": This is only true for some people.(11:19)
alancooper对大家说: mobile phones should not be a lump.(11:19)
colinluo进入聊天室.(11:20)
extreme对大家说: I think you are right.(11:20)
alancooper对大家说: Why should I hold a keyboard up to my ear?(11:20)
品雪进入聊天室.(11:20)
extreme对大家说: So, whatdo
you a mobile phone should look like ?(11:20)
alancooper对大家说: Why are there numbers on a tool for communicating with people?(11:20)
alancooper对大家说: I think a mobile phone should be invisible.(11:21)
alancooper对大家说: An earpiece on a headband with a small microphone...(11:21)
extreme对大家说: Whatdo
you mean by Invisible ? hidden in the clothes ?(11:21)
fly cat对大家说: bluetooth?!(11:21)
alancooper对大家说: "hidden in the clothes?": that's a good start.(11:21)
kenxia对大家说: I t's great idea(11:21)
umlchina对alancooper说: but it is smaller and smaller now and can be put in anywhere(11:22)
alancooper对大家说: bluetooth is a good IDEA. It's not a very good protocol.(11:22)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: yes(11:22)
alancooper对大家说: The important part of phone is controlling it, not talking into it.(11:22)
fly cat对大家说: i think a baby should be a good intersction designer, he has the most wild imagination(11:22)
alancooper对大家说: whydo
mobile phones take two hands, both eyes, one ear, and all of my attention?(11:23)
fly cat对大家说: we are so trapped in books, softwares and protocols(11:24)
alancooper对大家说: "...trapped...": Programmers and project managers are. Interaction designers are not.(11:24)
品雪对alancooper说: there are lots of case looks like: user ask you submit project in a very limmitted period, and then
submit a lot a chang requirement to you,(11:24)
品雪对alancooper说: is there still some kind of interactive design?(11:24)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers can lead us out of the trap.(11:24)
extreme对大家说: So, where and how can we find such a designer here in China ?(11:25)
alancooper对大家说: "...lots of case looks like...": Yes, there is a LOT of bad management out there.(11:25)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: What's the relation with the interaction des and UML.(11:25)
umlchina对品雪说: I think Interaction design is for Product,not project(11:25)
alancooper对大家说: "where and how...find...": They are there. Probably not programming. Maybe in tech support, testing,do
cumentation...(11:26)
品雪对umlchina说: hehe, maybe(11:26)
alancooper对大家说: "Product, not project": This distinction is not universal.(11:26)
extreme对大家说: but I think it's a big difference.(11:27)
alancooper对大家说: "...maybe...": It is difficult to find interaction designers when they have been repressed for so long.(11:27)
fly cat对大家说: Is interaction design popular in USA now(11:28)
extreme对大家说: the same question ?(11:28)
alancooper对大家说: "...popular in USA...": It is growing.(11:28)
umlchina对品雪说: The Road of Chinese software is PRODUCT, not PROJECT as India, I think(11:28)
tobytan进入聊天室.(11:28)
品雪对umlchina说: yeah, I thinks so, too. but let's face the fact and get a better solution(11:29)
alancooper对大家说: "product v project": Neither is as important as design for the user.(11:29)
umlchina对alancooper说: Where the web should go? HTML is not suitable for Interaction design?(11:29)
extreme对大家说: I guess we cando
both PRODUCT and PROJECT if needed.(11:29)
alancooper对大家说: HTML sucks.(11:29)
fly cat对大家说: what is the most difficult part in promoting interaction design in USA(11:29)
umlchina对alancooper说: But it is simple(11:30)
extreme对大家说: and alos popular.(11:30)
extreme对大家说: sort of de-factor(11:30)
alancooper对大家说: "promoting interaction design": convincing senior executives that the behavior of their software has a strong influence over the money they make and spend.
(11:30)
bungee_jumping进入聊天室.(11:31)
bungee_jumping对alancooper说: can UML be applied to interaction design?how todo
it?(11:31)
alancooper对大家说: "and also popular": So is crime.(11:31)
extreme对大家说: but is works very well for representing informaiton on the internet.(11:32)
areca_chen进入聊天室.(11:32)
品雪对alancooper说: have you any advise to this bad situation(...lots of case looks like),when we cannot avoid it, which point to start to interaction design more than programmer's experienc(11:32)
linkspeed进入聊天室.(11:32)
alancooper对大家说: "...works very well...": NO ITdo
ES NOT!!!!(11:32)
umlchina对alancooper说: popular<-->crime?(11:32)
fly cat对大家说: because we have no other choice(11:33)
guodd进入聊天室.(11:33)
extreme对大家说: I mean at the moment, before new technology come into the market.(11:33)
alancooper对大家说: HTML<--->CRIME(11:33)
alancooper对大家说: Many of the limitations of HTML can be overcome with good interaction design. Few programmers care to follow interaction designers.(11:34)
chenzhaohuiemail进入聊天室.(11:34)
alancooper对大家说: Overcoming limitations of HTML takes lots of difficult coding, too.(11:35)
linkspeed对大家说: in my understanding, the main drawback of HTML is to the system,(11:35)
extreme对大家说: but we got now interaction designer here in China to tell us(11:35)
fly cat对大家说: have you ever condidered to promote your ideas in china? books not enough(11:35)
alancooper对大家说: I am promoting them right now.(11:36)
alancooper对大家说: Tell your boss!(11:36)
extreme对大家说: I hope I can by the engilsh version of yuor book in China, VERY MUCH.(11:36)
extreme对大家说: sorry, buy(11:36)
alancooper对大家说: I would like to see my book sold in China, too.(11:36)
areca_chen离开了聊天室.(11:37)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: How much, I hope it's not too expensive(11:37)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't have any control over the book. It's up to the publisher.(11:37)
umlchina对大家说: You can go to book store to buy one(11:37)
extreme对大家说: you mean english version, umlchina ?(11:38)
品雪对alancooper说: have you any advise to the bad situation(...lots of case looks like),when we cannot avoid it, which point to start to interaction design more than programmer's experience(11:38)
umlchina对extreme说: No, chinese version(11:38)
extreme对大家说: I already got one, umlchina.(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: "...advice...":do
n't let managers make you start coding until there is some written description of the program's BEHAVIOR.(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: Functions and behavior are not the same thing.(11:39)
extreme对大家说: Howdo
you think we cando
CUMENT this BEHAVIOUR ? UML ?(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: Features and behavior are not the same thing.(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: Draw pictures.(11:40)
extreme对大家说: in what kind of tool ? photoshop ?(11:40)
alancooper对大家说: Use a pencil.(11:40)
alancooper对大家说: We use whiteboards a lot.(11:40)
alancooper对大家说: PowerPoint is also good.(11:40)
品雪对alancooper说:do
you mean ui designing issue?(11:41)
developerly进入聊天室.(11:41)
developerly对大家说: So I think the Use Case Diagram is good to use(11:41)
xiaomch进入聊天室.(11:41)
alancooper对大家说: "...advice...": You must know who your user is. You cannot think of your user as "the user".(11:42)
alancooper对大家说: Choose one person to be your user. Imagine this person.(11:42)
umlchina对alancooper说: Larry Constantine use Essential Use Case for UI design(11:42)
fly cat对大家说: can your list some great interaction designers outside your own company, maybe they aredo
ing the samething butdo
n't call it interaction design.(11:42)
alancooper对大家说: Give this person a name.(11:43)
alancooper对大家说: "...great interaction designers...": Rob Haitani designed the Palm Pilot.(11:43)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: Howdo
you think c++?(11:44)
alancooper对大家说: Ben Schneiderman designed SmartMoney.com marketmap.(11:45)
alancooper对大家说: Learning C++ is as easy as learning to play the piano.(11:45)
fly cat对大家说: the personas(11:45)
extreme对大家说: I take it as " Learning C++ is as DIFFICULT as learning to play the piano."(11:45)
soonon进入聊天室.(11:45)
alancooper对大家说: Yes, we call them personas.(11:46)
alancooper对大家说: "DIFFICULT": YES!!(11:46)
umlchina对alancooper说: Where the web should go? Since HTML Suck.(11:46)
joy_wind进入聊天室.(11:46)
alancooper对大家说: "Where the web should go?": Smarter browser.(11:47)
joy_wind对大家说: Hello Cooper!(11:47)
alancooper对大家说: Hello!(11:47)
joy_wind对大家说: what is smarter browser(11:47)
smilemac进入聊天室.(11:47)
alancooper对大家说: "...smarter browser": It would be able to remember things, write things to disk, communicate with servers interactively....(11:48)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: You mean the SMART AGENT(11:49)
alancooper对大家说: It would have better interaction idioms, like drag and drop, scrolling, refreshing.(11:49)
extreme对大家说: "write thing to disk' security ?(11:49)
joy_wind对alancooper说: What kind technic will it introduce?(11:49)
litter_ok进入聊天室.(11:49)
umlchina对alancooper说: Smarter browser remember things: conflict with privacy?(11:49)
alancooper对大家说: "...security": Yes, that is a problem to solve. But it isn't very hard.(11:49)
fly cat对大家说: what if the interaction designers made some mistakes? they were so important in the whole project it is easy for them to ruin all things.(11:49)
alancooper对大家说: What if the programmers made some mistakes?(11:50)
extreme对大家说: fire him!(11:50)
extreme对大家说: just kidding.(11:50)
hard64进入聊天室.(11:50)
alancooper对大家说: "fire him!": Yes, a professional cannot afford mistakes.(11:51)
smilemac对大家说: Hi Alan, howdo
you think the confict between timing limitation and a good design for interaction in a project?(11:51)
joy_wind对alancooper说: good question(11:51)
fly cat对大家说: but mistakes is unavoidable(11:51)
alancooper对大家说: "timing limitation...": Why is there a time limit? Who made it too short? Why did he make it too short?(11:52)
alancooper对大家说: Whatdo
es he hope to gain by making time limit too short?(11:52)
joy_wind对alancooper说: time is money(11:52)
品雪对alancooper说: I take it(the advise), thank you.(11:52)
alancooper对大家说: "time is money": Wasted time is money.(11:52)
joy_wind对alancooper说: The boss care about his money we care about the project(11:53)
alancooper对大家说: The reason why managers give short time limits is because theydo
n't know what programmers aredo
ing.(11:53)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers can tell managers what programmers aredo
ing.(11:54)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers can get programmers more time to work.(11:54)
joy_wind对alancooper说: I cant agree u more!(11:54)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: YOU ARE RIGHT(11:54)
extreme对大家说: just as you mention in the book, the manager gotta deploy somethig.(11:54)
smilemac对alancooper说: Such as market press, budget, management level and so on. all these thing will cause the time limitation to a project. Many product are just the results of trade-off.(11:55)
extreme对大家说: and interaction turn into sort of project manager,(11:55)
alancooper对大家说: "...gotta deploy something": Only because hedo
esn't know what the program will look like until it isdo
ne.(11:55)
fly cat对大家说: I think interaction design more focus on user requirement than design(11:55)
alancooper对大家说: "...market press, budget...": all are excuses to hide that managerdo
esn't know what program willdo
or look like or how it will behave.(11:56)
alancooper对大家说: "...focus more on user requirement...": YES!!!(11:56)
soonon对大家说: agree(11:56)
alancooper对大家说: as I said before, interaction design is not the same thing as user interface design.(11:56)
extreme对大家说: so, who is gonna be responsible for what the software shoulddo
?(11:57)
extreme对大家说: interaction designer ?(11:57)
alancooper对大家说: "who...responsible...": The interaction designer is the person with the best skills for answering this question so that EVERYBODY wins.(11:57)
extreme对大家说: who control the proces ? interaction designer ?(11:57)
alancooper对大家说: The process should be controlled by a manager.(11:57)
joy_wind对alancooper说: what is concret works of the interaction designer?(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: The form and behavior of the program should be controlled by the interaction designer.(11:58)
extreme对大家说: so, the interaction designer looks like a analyst(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: The technology and the code should be controlled by the programmer.(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: "...analyst": One of the jobs of the interaction designer is analysis.(11:58)
smilemac对alancooper说: But how to judge how much value one interaction design means to user.(11:58)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: Control? By right or By Skill(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: But "Analysts"do
n't design.(11:58)
tipsyy对umlchina说: what things a interaction designer should todo
in a project?(11:59)
joy_wind对alancooper说: is a interaction designer more like an architecturer?(11:59)
alancooper对大家说: "By right or by skill": Whatdo
programmers control by today? Theydo
n't seem to have the necessary skill to design.(11:59)
extreme对大家说: but how can a guy turn into sort of analyst without the knowledge of programming ?(11:59)
alancooper对大家说: "...interaction designer...like architect": YES, YES, YES!!!!(11:59)
alancooper对大家说: "how can a guy...without...programming?": How can a programmer decide what users want?(12:00)
joy_wind对alancooper说: right!(12:00)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't mean the programmer should know the requirements, I just want to say(12:01)
extreme对大家说: a interaction designer should know something about programming in order todo
some analysis work.(12:02)
alancooper对大家说: why?(12:02)
alancooper对大家说: I think what you really mean is that you are worried that an interaction designer will ask you todo
something that is stupid.(12:03)
extreme对大家说: cause, Ido
n't think a person without any knowledge of programming can be a good analyst.(12:03)
alancooper对大家说: But a good, professional interaction designer would not design something that cannot be coded or would be slow to run.(12:04)
slo进入聊天室.(12:04)
joy_wind对alancooper说: interaction designer is not an analyst， right?(12:04)
品雪对alancooper说: you mean analysis is more like in uerser knowladgedo
main?(12:04)
tipsyy对alancooper说: then
please tell me, what should bedo
ne by a interaction designer in a project and what kind of responsibility of he or she to this project?(12:04)
smilemac对alancooper说: So he must know some thing about programing technologies(12:04)
alancooper对大家说: "...in user's...domain": YES(12:05)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't think a userdo
main expert is a perfect analyst(12:05)
developerly离开了聊天室.(12:05)
bungee_jumping进入聊天室.(12:05)
bungee_jumping对大家说: i think the two are Practically the same.(12:05)
alancooper对大家说: "...what kind of responsibility?": The interaction designer should be responsible for what the programdo
es and how it behaves.(12:05)
joy_wind对extreme说: Yes he could be!(12:06)
fcx123进入聊天室.(12:06)
alancooper对大家说: The first part of all of our design projects is a detailed research project into the problemdo
main.(12:06)
smilemac对alancooper说: Could the interaction designer and project manager is a same man?(12:07)
extreme对大家说: Yes,(12:07)
extreme对大家说: but then
, ,(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: "...the same man?": Why?(12:07)
fly cat对大家说: Time is over,do
you think it's better for me to finish this chatting?(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: Why ask an expert in one field to work in another field?(12:07)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't think so for a large proejct.(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: Yes, I must go.(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: I have enjoyed talking with you all.(12:08)
alancooper对大家说: thank you very much!!!!!!(12:08)
smilemac对alancooper说: Sometimes, no more people.(12:08)
fly cat对大家说: Mr cooper(12:08)
extreme对大家说: bye, bye, Mr. Cooper, glad to meet you.(12:08)
fuzhong进入聊天室.(12:08)
alancooper对大家说: Goodbye(12:08)
fly cat对大家说: thank you very much(12:08)
joy_wind对alancooper说: Thank you，Cooper!(12:08)
品雪对alancooper说: good by, Mr cooper(12:08)
bungee_jumping对大家说: thanks,cooper(12:08)
smilemac对alancooper说: thank u(12:08)
品雪对alancooper说: glad to meet you(12:08)
soonon对大家说: bye, mr cooper(12:08)
umlchina对alancooper说: good night(12:08)
smilemac对alancooper说: bye, alan(12:08)
umlchina对alancooper说: and the exit button is at right -bottom(12:09)
joy_wind对alancooper说: Thank you,umlchian!(12:09)
extreme对大家说: bye, every one.(12:09)
yuminghui离开了聊天室.(12:09)
fly cat对大家说: so glad(12:09)
alancooper离开了聊天室.(12:09)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
北京时间2001年12月15日（星期六）上午10:00-12:00。
嘉宾：Alan Cooper，软件交互设计的先知和传播者，客户咨询公司Cooper Interaction Design的创始人和总裁。成就：
*第一个可视化开发工具Visual Basic的发明者
*经典著作：
The inmates are running the asylum（中文书名：《软件创新之路--冲破高技术营造的牢笼》，翻译: 刘瑞挺 刘强 程岩，电子工业出版社，2001。）；About Face: The Essentials of User Interface Design
*他的公司帮助IBM、3M、Ericsson、Sun、Visa...等客户开发了许多具有市场竞争力的产品。
....
交流重点：软件可用性，交互设计，其它...
主持人：flycat
要更多了解Alan Cooper的思想，请看以下资料：（1）《非程序员》第七期的第一篇文章“交互设计之父Alan Cooper访谈”；（2）去书店买他的著作：《软件创新之路--冲破高技术营造的牢笼》
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alancooper进入聊天室.(10:07)
fly cat对大家说: welcome,Mr Alan, thanks you for your time and attention,(10:08)
extreme对大家说: Hi, fly cat, This is the first time for me to take part in such a discussion. I like your name. he he...(10:08)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(10:08)
alancooper对大家说: Hello, this is Alan Cooper.(10:08)
umlchina对大家说: welcome mr. cooper(10:08)
alancooper对大家说: Thank you. I'm very glad to be here(10:08)
extreme对大家说: Hi,Alan, I am extreme.(10:08)
virtinoo进入聊天室.(10:08)
umlchina对大家说: 提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色(10:09)
fly cat对大家说: Mr.alan,most of us were impressed by yourbook <The Inmates are running the asylum>, what's your opion of the book?(10:09)
extreme对大家说: I bought the Chinese version of your book < The inmates are running the asylum >. It is obviously a great book, but I dislike the translation. Ido
n’t think I can buy the(10:09)
virtinoo对大家说: hello everybody.(10:09)
alancooper对大家说: I tried to show another way of thinking about how software should be designed and developed(10:09)
extreme对大家说: English version here in China, so, could you please tell me where I cando
wnload the English version ? Thanks.(10:10)
founder_chen对大家说: Mr.alan ,how to design web-based management tool(10:10)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't think there is any way todo
wnload the whole book, yet(10:10)
alancooper对大家说: "web-based management tool"...to manage what?(10:11)
extreme对大家说: Sorry, I just want to find a way to see the english version.(10:11)
umlchina对大家说: extreme, buy one book from store(10:11)
alancooper对大家说: Can you purchase books from Amazon.com?(10:12)
founder_chen对大家说: such as tmn, service provisioning platform(10:12)
wrymy对alancooper说: maybe to manage a enterprise,like erp,finance or crm(10:12)
yuminghui对alancooper说: Hi, nice to meet you here(10:12)
boss_ch对alancooper说: Mr Alan ,could you please change your color to RED?(10:12)
umlchina对大家说: Mr. cooper, Howdo
you think about the UI of Windows? and compare it with Mac? for the view of interaction design(10:12)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't think it's easy for me Cause Ido
n't have a American credit card(10:13)
alancooper对大家说: I think that the UI of Windows and the UI of the Mac are identical(10:13)
sdr进入聊天室.(10:14)
umlchina对alancooper说: identical-->Good or bad?(10:14)
yuminghui对alancooper说: Lots of college studetns in China just know simple appliations of VB and they think they are top programmer.
(10:14)alancooper对大家说: Identical good for 1984, old and gray and bald for 2001(10:14)
boss_ch对alancooper说: Howdo
you feel about the UI of Windows XP?(10:15)
alancooper对大家说: "...think they are top programmer..." Same thing in USA(10:15)
wrymy对alancooper说: ido
nt like ui style of windows xp(10:15)
alancooper对大家说: I think the UI of Windows XP is identical to other Windows and Mac(10:16)
yuminghui对alancooper说: ^_^(10:16)
extreme对大家说: It is said C# might replace Visual Basic soon. Whatdo
you think about it, Mr. Cooper ?(10:16)
tipsyy进入聊天室.(10:16)
umlchina对alancooper说: if windows were designed by you, you will....?(10:16)
guodd对大家说: top programmer but not artist?(10:16)
alancooper对大家说: C# looks like a very good language(10:17)
yuminghui对alancooper说: I think C# has too many features like Java, just like another version of Java.(10:17)
fly cat对大家说: you emphasize the important of interaction design,in my opion, it is very useful when the programme need a lot of user-machine interaction, but for the programmes(10:17)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't think that programming is an art. I think it is a craft, like pottery making or glass blowing.(10:17)
fly cat对大家说: such as embedded systems used for real-time monitor and control,do
you think it's(10:17)
fly cat对大家说: still applicable?(10:18)
yuminghui对alancooper说: it is said that young guys, esp those who just begin
to program(10:18)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't think that interaction design is applicable for programmers regardless of what they are writing. Interaction design is for interaction designers.(10:18)
fly cat对大家说: programming is a craft, design is art?(10:19)
alancooper对大家说: design is a craft, too.(10:19)
yuminghui对alancooper说: they should not use language like VB or tools like some UML tools at first(10:19)
extreme对大家说: What kind of background or knowledge basedo
you think is needed for a good interaction designer , Mr. Cooper ?(10:19)
alancooper对大家说: Good programmers can program independent of ANY language(10:20)
yuminghui对alancooper说: they should be nailed to use C/C++. may i have your opinions?(10:20)
fl_xyg进入聊天室.(10:20)
dboy.huang对alancooper说: Whatdo
you think about Java EJB?(10:20)
alancooper对大家说: Good interaction designers need to be trained in interaction design methods(10:20)
extreme对大家说: Say, paiting or art ?(10:21)
tipsyy对alancooper说: please, howdo
you think the framework of .net and the internet OS(10:21)
alancooper对大家说: Art plays almost no role in any aspect of software design or development(10:21)
sdr对alancooper说: which toolsdo
you choose between Rational suite and Ms visio(10:21)
shenqw对大家说: interaction designers needs knowing programming?(10:21)
greatfox进入聊天室.(10:21)
fly cat对大家说: which background is most important for interantion designer? technical or marketing?(10:22)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers need to know what is IMPORTANT to programmers, but theydo
n't need to know how to program.(10:22)
alancooper对大家说: "technical or marketing": Neither. Interaction design is a profession of its own.(10:22)
hdw1978进入聊天室.(10:22)
wrymy对alancooper说: now fashion to devlope on web,eg. normal html,xml,etc.. but we offten found that to design a friedly ui is so hard on web,specially when u design a enterprise system(10:23)
wrymy对alancooper说: the control on the web is so hard(10:23)
wrymy对alancooper说: to immplement when the control is very complex(10:23)
extreme对大家说: I guess, he might need to know something about the psychology , right ?(10:23)
alancooper对大家说: "control on the web is so hard" : that is SO TRUE!!(10:23)
yuminghui对alancooper说: In my opinion, I think it is sense of marketing and operation skills of marketing that decide the percepective of some software because I am major in marketing ＾＿＾(10:23)
umlchina对大家说: Mr. cooper, Can you introduce some good tools on Interaction Design?(10:23)
shenqw对大家说: but the interaction designers how to know that they should put what on the screen?(10:24)
guodd对大家说: How to become a designer from a programmer? Which kind of books may help?(10:24)
alancooper对大家说: "psychology": Interaction designers must know what is IMPORTANT to psychologists.(10:24)
penghongjie进入聊天室.(10:24)
hdj0569进入聊天室.(10:24)
yuminghui对alancooper说: so the boss needs to hire psychology major in the team?(10:25)
alancooper对大家说: "...put what on the screen?" the same way that programmers know what code to put in the editor.(10:25)
xmlone进入聊天室.(10:25)
wrymy对alancooper说: so if u have some suggest on the design of web(10:25)
alancooper对大家说: "...hire psychology...": No, just the opposite. Hire interaction designer so theydo
n't have to hire psychology majors.(10:25)
alancooper对大家说: Psychology majors CAN'T DESIGN interaction(10:26)
alancooper对大家说: "suggest...design of web": Yes, put all interaction on one page.(10:26)
extreme对大家说: So, what should hedo
if one guy want to become a interaction designer ?(10:26)
alancooper对大家说: "...to become interaction designer?": stop programming.(10:27)
fly cat对大家说: it seemed i that i have read your book ,but haven't grasp the soul(10:27)
yuminghui对alancooper说: "psychology major and read " should be "can read"(10:27)
extreme对大家说: Why to stop programming ?(10:28)
alancooper对大家说: "...interface...user friendly": interaction design is not the same thing as interface design.(10:28)
alancooper对大家说: "Why stop programming?": Because the goals of programmers and designers are in conflict. You can'tdo
both at the same time.(10:28)
extreme对大家说: So, I have no chance to become a interaction desinger, cause I like programmign so much.(10:29)
fly cat对大家说: Mr.cooper, can you briefly express the soul of interaction design?(10:29)
alancooper对大家说: If you like programming so much, why would you WANT to be an interaction designer?(10:29)
umlchina对alancooper说: "programmers and designers are in conflict", but they are all in a team?(10:29)
developerly进入聊天室.(10:30)
hdj0569对alancooper说: hi,I encounter this problem: I want to send the video on the monitor of one computer (computer A) to another one (computer B),(10:30)
alancooper对大家说: "...soul of interaction design?": Making the technology serve the users, instead of making the users serve technology.(10:30)
hdj0569对alancooper说: making the two videos of A and B are exactly the same. The video signal will be transferred in the real time.(10:30)
yuminghui对alancooper说: i cannot agree with you more(10:30)
extreme对大家说: Yes, as umlchina mentioned, designer and programmer are in one team, that is why have some interst in it.(10:30)
alancooper对大家说: "programmers and designers in conflict": No. The **GOALS** of programmers and desginers are in conflict.(10:31)
loveuml进入聊天室.(10:31)
extreme对大家说: So, whatdo
you think I should know about interaction design, as a programmer or project manager ?(10:32)
yuminghui对alancooper说: May I ask you how about the placement of VB programmer (intermidiate level) in the US? how abouthte average yearly income?(10:33)
lj25进入聊天室.(10:33)
umlchina对alancooper说:do
es a good interaction Designer use any tools? can you introduce one?(10:33)
alancooper对大家说: "...think I should know...": that good interaction designers will be able to convince you why you should follow their design.(10:33)
fly cat对大家说: In your opion, what't the most valuable character of an interaction designer?(10:34)
bungee_jumping对alancooper说: you use UML todo
the interaction design? if youdo
, how todo
it?(10:34)
guodd对大家说:do
you means good interaction designers need more communication skill instead of solid design?(10:34)
alancooper对大家说: "...tools": We use qualitative field research techniques, user modelling methods, design principles, design patterns, and lots of paper and whiteboards.(10:34)
extreme对大家说: But as a project manager without any knowledge, how can i know this guy would lead us to success ?(10:35)
umlchina对alancooper说: so, Any good books in how to make interaction design step by step?(10:35)
boss_ch进入聊天室.(10:35)
boss_ch对alancooper说: Could you give some suggest to web base application interaction designer?(10:35)
alancooper对大家说: "..how can I know...": Yes, how can you know? Can programming knowledge help you? Ido
n't think so.(10:35)
hdj0569对大家说: why?(10:36)
extreme对大家说: So, what can help me ?(10:36)
awcpowerise进入聊天室.(10:36)
alancooper对大家说: "...what can help me?": An interaction designer.(10:36)
fly cat对大家说: then
you are an interaction designer, can you give us some directions now?(10:38)
shenqw对大家说: What kind of people can be an interaction designer? what skill should They have?(10:38)
extreme对大家说: But Ido
n't think it's easy to find a good interaction desinger here in China.(10:38)
wrymy对alancooper说: i think extreme means how he could know the interaction designer make a good design?i want know about it too.(10:39)
alancooper对大家说: It is just as hard to find a good interaction designer as it is to find a good programmer. Anywhere.(10:39)
umler进入聊天室.(10:39)
extreme对大家说: So, as fly cat mentioned, could you give us any directions ?(10:40)
alancooper对大家说: "...how he could know...": Why should the programmer sit in judgment over the interaction designer?(10:40)
hdw1978对alancooper说: INSPIRATION, in most cases, wheredo
you get the inspiration?(10:40)
alancooper对大家说: "INSPIRATION": Wheredo
programmers get inspiration?(10:40)
wrymy对alancooper说: but if i'm a project manager,i must know...(10:40)
alancooper对大家说: Yes, as a project manager, you must know.(10:41)
wrymy对alancooper说: i think extreme want to be a project manager.
(10:41)extreme对大家说: Yes, I gotta know if I were a PROJECT MANAGER.(10:41)
extreme对大家说: Yes, some time in the future.(10:41)
umlchina对alancooper说: Have any good books which can tell us how to make interaction design step by step?(10:42)
fly cat对大家说: i have a feeling, Mr.cooper are stimulate us to found the solution, instead of told us directly(10:42)
alancooper对大家说: "...step by step": not yet, but we are working on one.(10:42)
alancooper对大家说: "...told us directly": Interaction design is NOT an engineering discipline.(10:42)
umlchina对alancooper说: Yes! have you any plan to write a new book?(10:43)
extreme对大家说: So, I suggest Mr. cooper to set up a educaiotn program here in China to give us some training .(10:43)
alancooper对大家说: "...new book?": Two senior designers at Cooper are working on textbook.(10:43)
alancooper对大家说: "...education program in China": That's a good idea.(10:44)
shenqw对大家说: What kind of people can be an interaction designer? what skill should they have?(10:44)
alancooper对大家说: "what skill should they have?": Interaction designers need to be able to visualize complex behavior without actually seeing it.(10:45)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction design must take place before any code is written.(10:45)
fly cat对大家说: But i think it's difficult for the interaction designers to set up their authority if they haven't some successful experience(10:45)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers must be able to IMAGINE what the code willdo
before it is written.(10:45)
extreme对大家说: Can this sort of skill ' to visualize complex behaviouis without actually seeing it" be trained ?(10:46)
alancooper对大家说: "...difficult...to set up authority": That is very true.(10:46)
alancooper对大家说: "...be trained?": Only if you are born with the talent, first.(10:46)
alancooper对大家说: Just like programming can be trained, but only if you are born with the natural talent to program, first.(10:47)
fly cat对大家说: i'm confused(10:47)
greatfox对alancooper说: why?(10:47)
alancooper对大家说: "I'm confused": That is a very good start!(10:47)
extreme对大家说: Yes, so am I. Sort of psychology issue.(10:47)
umlchina对alancooper说: We have read the Chinese version of your "The inmates..." , but another one "about face" is published earlier.do
you think if it should be translated into Chinese now or(10:47)
fly cat对大家说: and then
?(10:48)
umlchina对alancooper说: we should wait for the second edition of "About face"?(10:48)
extreme对大家说: sorry, philosophy , rather than psychology .(10:48)
alancooper对大家说: "and then
?": then
you are ready to learn another very difficult, but very different, skill.(10:49)
fly cat对大家说: but how to?(10:49)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
not understand why an engineer would want to be an interaction designer.(10:49)
alancooper对大家说: Engineers HATE todo
the things that interaction designersdo
.(10:50)
jazy进入聊天室.(10:50)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers deal with humans. Not CPUs and programming languages and operating systems.(10:50)
extreme对大家说: We just want to communicate better with an interaction designer.(10:50)
alancooper对大家说: "...want to communicate...": That's WONDERFUL!!(10:51)
hdw1978离开了聊天室.(10:51)
greatfox对alancooper说: yes,but how can we assort with the programmer&
interaction designer.as a project manager?(10:51)
extreme对大家说: So, we gotta know something about it.(10:51)
品雪进入聊天室.(10:51)
alancooper对大家说: "but how to?": Stop programming. Imagine a user. Design something for him or her.(10:52)
shenqw对大家说: "IMAGINE what the code willdo
before it is written"? --> What code? Program source code? In your option, the Interaction designer must have some programming experience?(10:52)
umlchina对alancooper说: Where the web should go? HTML is not suitable for Interaction design?(10:52)
hzmajw进入聊天室.(10:53)
alancooper对大家说: "...must have some programming experience?": Whydo
you think that is true?(10:53)
fl_xyg进入聊天室.(10:54)
fl_xyg对alancooper说: Sequence Diagram of use case is Design of soft(10:54)
fly cat对大家说: for if hedo
esn't have some programming experience? it's hard for him to let the engineers listen to him(10:54)
adamwu进入聊天室.(10:55)
alancooper对大家说: "...hard for him to let the engineers listen...": You mean that the engineers won't listen to an interaction designer? Why not?(10:55)
fl_xyg对alancooper说: Sequence Diagram of use case is Design of soft?(10:55)
alancooper对大家说: "Sequence Diagram": I think this is a tool for programmers.(10:56)
hzmajw对大家说: can artist act as interaction designer(10:56)
agan01进入聊天室.(10:56)
hzmajw对大家说: or can office assistant artist act as interaction designer(10:56)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction design is not art.(10:57)
hzmajw对大家说: why(10:57)
alancooper对大家说: Can office assistant write code?(10:57)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction design is just as complex, sophisticated, and difficult as writing code is.(10:57)
fly cat对大家说: Before the interaction designer set up his authority, it's really very hard. being a good programmer first is one way to set up his authority, also self confidence(10:57)
jazy对大家说: because here's a lot of engineers care about coding more than customer's need(10:58)
hzmajw对大家说: i always think that it's too bad programmer to act as interaction designer(10:58)
alancooper对大家说: "...being a good programmer first...": Why should the interaction designer have to prove himself to the programmer? Whydo
esn't the programmer have to(10:58)
alancooper对大家说: prove himself to the interaction designer?(10:58)
kenxia进入聊天室.(10:58)
bobar进入聊天室.(10:59)
hzmajw对大家说: programmer is just to implement the function or procedure,just code deigner,not interaction designer(10:59)
shenqw对大家说: OK, The interactiondo
es't need some programming experience, But how the Interaction designer can IMAGINE what the code willdo
before it is written?(10:59)
extreme进入聊天室.(11:00)
stevenend进入聊天室.(11:00)
jazy对hzmajw说: it's besed on ur aim:coding for urself or other people?(11:00)
hzmajw对大家说: system designer ,interaction designer,code desinger must be three actors(11:00)
fly cat对大家说: but in reality world, this just exists(11:00)
alancooper对大家说: "...how...IMAGINE?": That's what interaction designersdo
. If **YOU** can'tdo
it, then
you are not an interaction designer.(11:00)
siyul进入聊天室.(11:00)
alancooper对大家说: "..this just exists.": And it is my job to change reality.(11:01)
fly cat对大家说: but how to(11:01)
developerly对大家说: Before you became a designer, were you everdo
ing some coding work?(11:01)
alancooper对大家说: "were you everdo
ing some coding work?": Only for about 15 years.(11:01)
extreme对大家说: Whao! Only 15 year !(11:02)
fly cat对大家说: in my opion, you also need to set up your authority by being the father of VB(11:02)
alancooper对大家说: I coded the visual part of visual basic.(11:02)
umlchina对developerly说: Mr. Cooper designed the VB(11:02)
extreme对大家说: and VB is so well-known and popular.(11:03)
developerly对大家说: So,do
you think your experiences of coding ever help you with the designing later?(11:03)
hzmajw对大家说: so the client programn(11:03)
alancooper对大家说: At my company, we have forty interaction designers. None of them writes code. All of them visualize what the behavior of code will be.(11:03)
umlchina对大家说: VB is a revolution(11:03)
extreme对大家说: so, how can you let us believe a good desinger need to know nothign about programming .(11:03)
kenxia对大家说: But I think VB is not suitable for designing large projet.(11:04)
alancooper对大家说: Many of Cooper's designers have never written a single line of code.(11:04)
alancooper对大家说: VB is not a design tool.(11:04)
hzmajw对大家说: so the client program is just face, hart is over there,the server compenent(11:04)
alancooper对大家说: "...client program is just face...": That is rarely true.(11:05)
umlchina对alancooper说: Have any tool ONLY for interaction design?(11:05)
alancooper对大家说: "...tool...for interaction design?": Yes, but not one made out of software.(11:05)
hzmajw对大家说: so client program is just loooking art(11:06)
extreme对大家说: I get confused.(11:06)
greatfox对alancooper说: me too(11:06)
umlchina对alancooper说: 'not one made out of software"?(11:06)
extreme对大家说: no software tools for design ?(11:06)
powertoy进入聊天室.(11:06)
fly cat对大家说: it seems a good programmer could hardly be a good interaction designer.(11:06)
alancooper对大家说: ***The questions you are asking me sound just like the questions programmers in California asked me about 6 years ago.(11:07)
alancooper对大家说: "...good programmer...good interaction designer": Why would he want to be?(11:07)
umlchina对alancooper说: ??(11:07)
extreme对大家说: That's why we come here to listen to some ideas(11:08)
alancooper对大家说: "...why we come here...": I really appreciate your participation and the quality of your interest.(11:08)
umlchina对alancooper说: Neither artist, nor programmer, To develop a new position is so hard(11:09)
alancooper对大家说: "...new position is so hard.": Yes, that is true. We have alreadydo
ne it.(11:09)
umlchina对alancooper说: We need more book(11:09)
fly cat对大家说: In china, the idea path for a programmer is coding->designing->leading(11:09)
umlchina对alancooper说: step by step, tobe educated(11:10)
developerly进入聊天室.(11:10)
developerly对大家说: why a programmer want to be a good interaction designer,the reason I think is because they want to try more or they can program a software with good face
(11:10)alancooper对大家说: "coding-->designing-->leading": I think this is not correct.(11:10)
umlchina对alancooper说: More and more people know interaction design(11:10)
extreme对大家说: So, is your idea about the path ?(11:10)
developerly对大家说: so what you think is correct?(11:10)
alancooper对大家说: It should be junior coder-->coder-->senior coder(11:10)
alancooper对大家说: junior designer-->designer-->senior designer(11:10)
alancooper对大家说: junior leader-->leader-->senior leader(11:11)
alancooper对大家说: Programmers generally make low quality designers and low quality leaders.(11:11)
extreme对大家说: You mean a project manager can know nothing abuot the programming ?(11:11)
hzmajw对大家说: yes,(11:11)
umlchina对alancooper说: but no junior architect?(11:11)
developerly对大家说: if a coder want to be a leader,how can hedo
?(11:11)
alancooper对大家说: All job titles are confused and confusing.(11:12)
jazy对大家说: i think u mean that interaction designers charge of expressing,and programmers charge of logical,nothing will be welldo
ne whithout either part(11:12)
alancooper对大家说: "i think u mean...expressing...logical...": I think that is correct.(11:12)
alancooper对大家说: "nothing will be welldo
ne without either part": YES, YES, YES!!!!!(11:12)
hzmajw对大家说: everybody should think which actor he would be ,just as he(11:13)
hzmajw对大家说: like(11:13)
developerly对大家说: I've catch your mean(11:13)
hzmajw对大家说: when he have the aim,he will be good at his job(11:14)
fly cat对大家说: so most of us have to follow the path junior coder-->coder-->senior coder(11:14)
extreme对大家说: but some time the boss need you to become a project manager, what should youdo
?(11:15)
alancooper对大家说: People who really LOVE to code, are really GOOD at coding, and they should continue to code. It would be a waste todo
otherwise.(11:15)
hzmajw对大家说: if u want to be coder,then
step and step, deep into the code world(11:15)
kenxia对大家说: How to become a good designer.(11:15)
alancooper对大家说: "but some time boss need you...": Boss should go back to coding.(11:15)
developerly对大家说: heheh(11:15)
alancooper对大家说: heheh!(11:16)
umlchina对alancooper说: Which mobile phone are better from you interaction design view? Motolora, Nokia, Ericsson?(11:16)
extreme对大家说: But you become one famous interaction designer now,do
es it mean youdo
n't like programing any more ?(11:16)
virtinoo进入聊天室.(11:16)
alancooper对大家说: "which mobile phone?": I think they all suck.(11:16)
hzmajw离开了聊天室.(11:17)
alancooper对大家说: "...don't like programming any more?": I like it, but I'm not good enough at it anymore.(11:17)
umlchina对alancooper说: BUT....They are all fool?(11:17)
umlchina对alancooper说: And microsoft,IBM?(11:18)
extreme对大家说: That's sort of pity for the programmer community.(11:18)
sdr离开了聊天室.(11:18)
fly cat对大家说: but in my opion, when we are young, we like todo
something as coding, to realize something, then
we have more experience, it's naturally for us want todo
some design(11:18)
umlchina对alancooper说: the same as?(11:18)
wh7577进入聊天室.(11:19)
alancooper对大家说: "young...coding...more experience...design": This is only true for some people.(11:19)
alancooper对大家说: mobile phones should not be a lump.(11:19)
colinluo进入聊天室.(11:20)
extreme对大家说: I think you are right.(11:20)
alancooper对大家说: Why should I hold a keyboard up to my ear?(11:20)
品雪进入聊天室.(11:20)
extreme对大家说: So, whatdo
you a mobile phone should look like ?(11:20)
alancooper对大家说: Why are there numbers on a tool for communicating with people?(11:20)
alancooper对大家说: I think a mobile phone should be invisible.(11:21)
alancooper对大家说: An earpiece on a headband with a small microphone...(11:21)
extreme对大家说: Whatdo
you mean by Invisible ? hidden in the clothes ?(11:21)
fly cat对大家说: bluetooth?!(11:21)
alancooper对大家说: "hidden in the clothes?": that's a good start.(11:21)
kenxia对大家说: I t's great idea(11:21)
umlchina对alancooper说: but it is smaller and smaller now and can be put in anywhere(11:22)
alancooper对大家说: bluetooth is a good IDEA. It's not a very good protocol.(11:22)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: yes(11:22)
alancooper对大家说: The important part of phone is controlling it, not talking into it.(11:22)
fly cat对大家说: i think a baby should be a good intersction designer, he has the most wild imagination(11:22)
alancooper对大家说: whydo
mobile phones take two hands, both eyes, one ear, and all of my attention?(11:23)
fly cat对大家说: we are so trapped in books, softwares and protocols(11:24)
alancooper对大家说: "...trapped...": Programmers and project managers are. Interaction designers are not.(11:24)
品雪对alancooper说: there are lots of case looks like: user ask you submit project in a very limmitted period, and then
submit a lot a chang requirement to you,(11:24)
品雪对alancooper说: is there still some kind of interactive design?(11:24)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers can lead us out of the trap.(11:24)
extreme对大家说: So, where and how can we find such a designer here in China ?(11:25)
alancooper对大家说: "...lots of case looks like...": Yes, there is a LOT of bad management out there.(11:25)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: What's the relation with the interaction des and UML.(11:25)
umlchina对品雪说: I think Interaction design is for Product,not project(11:25)
alancooper对大家说: "where and how...find...": They are there. Probably not programming. Maybe in tech support, testing,do
cumentation...(11:26)
品雪对umlchina说: hehe, maybe(11:26)
alancooper对大家说: "Product, not project": This distinction is not universal.(11:26)
extreme对大家说: but I think it's a big difference.(11:27)
alancooper对大家说: "...maybe...": It is difficult to find interaction designers when they have been repressed for so long.(11:27)
fly cat对大家说: Is interaction design popular in USA now(11:28)
extreme对大家说: the same question ?(11:28)
alancooper对大家说: "...popular in USA...": It is growing.(11:28)
umlchina对品雪说: The Road of Chinese software is PRODUCT, not PROJECT as India, I think(11:28)
tobytan进入聊天室.(11:28)
品雪对umlchina说: yeah, I thinks so, too. but let's face the fact and get a better solution(11:29)
alancooper对大家说: "product v project": Neither is as important as design for the user.(11:29)
umlchina对alancooper说: Where the web should go? HTML is not suitable for Interaction design?(11:29)
extreme对大家说: I guess we cando
both PRODUCT and PROJECT if needed.(11:29)
alancooper对大家说: HTML sucks.(11:29)
fly cat对大家说: what is the most difficult part in promoting interaction design in USA(11:29)
umlchina对alancooper说: But it is simple(11:30)
extreme对大家说: and alos popular.(11:30)
extreme对大家说: sort of de-factor(11:30)
alancooper对大家说: "promoting interaction design": convincing senior executives that the behavior of their software has a strong influence over the money they make and spend.
(11:30)
bungee_jumping进入聊天室.(11:31)
bungee_jumping对alancooper说: can UML be applied to interaction design?how todo
it?(11:31)
alancooper对大家说: "and also popular": So is crime.(11:31)
extreme对大家说: but is works very well for representing informaiton on the internet.(11:32)
areca_chen进入聊天室.(11:32)
品雪对alancooper说: have you any advise to this bad situation(...lots of case looks like),when we cannot avoid it, which point to start to interaction design more than programmer's experienc(11:32)
linkspeed进入聊天室.(11:32)
alancooper对大家说: "...works very well...": NO ITdo
ES NOT!!!!(11:32)
umlchina对alancooper说: popular<-->crime?(11:32)
fly cat对大家说: because we have no other choice(11:33)
guodd进入聊天室.(11:33)
extreme对大家说: I mean at the moment, before new technology come into the market.(11:33)
alancooper对大家说: HTML<--->CRIME(11:33)
alancooper对大家说: Many of the limitations of HTML can be overcome with good interaction design. Few programmers care to follow interaction designers.(11:34)
chenzhaohuiemail进入聊天室.(11:34)
alancooper对大家说: Overcoming limitations of HTML takes lots of difficult coding, too.(11:35)
linkspeed对大家说: in my understanding, the main drawback of HTML is to the system,(11:35)
extreme对大家说: but we got now interaction designer here in China to tell us(11:35)
fly cat对大家说: have you ever condidered to promote your ideas in china? books not enough(11:35)
alancooper对大家说: I am promoting them right now.(11:36)
alancooper对大家说: Tell your boss!(11:36)
extreme对大家说: I hope I can by the engilsh version of yuor book in China, VERY MUCH.(11:36)
extreme对大家说: sorry, buy(11:36)
alancooper对大家说: I would like to see my book sold in China, too.(11:36)
areca_chen离开了聊天室.(11:37)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: How much, I hope it's not too expensive(11:37)
alancooper对大家说: Ido
n't have any control over the book. It's up to the publisher.(11:37)
umlchina对大家说: You can go to book store to buy one(11:37)
extreme对大家说: you mean english version, umlchina ?(11:38)
品雪对alancooper说: have you any advise to the bad situation(...lots of case looks like),when we cannot avoid it, which point to start to interaction design more than programmer's experience(11:38)
umlchina对extreme说: No, chinese version(11:38)
extreme对大家说: I already got one, umlchina.(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: "...advice...":do
n't let managers make you start coding until there is some written description of the program's BEHAVIOR.(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: Functions and behavior are not the same thing.(11:39)
extreme对大家说: Howdo
you think we cando
CUMENT this BEHAVIOUR ? UML ?(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: Features and behavior are not the same thing.(11:39)
alancooper对大家说: Draw pictures.(11:40)
extreme对大家说: in what kind of tool ? photoshop ?(11:40)
alancooper对大家说: Use a pencil.(11:40)
alancooper对大家说: We use whiteboards a lot.(11:40)
alancooper对大家说: PowerPoint is also good.(11:40)
品雪对alancooper说:do
you mean ui designing issue?(11:41)
developerly进入聊天室.(11:41)
developerly对大家说: So I think the Use Case Diagram is good to use(11:41)
xiaomch进入聊天室.(11:41)
alancooper对大家说: "...advice...": You must know who your user is. You cannot think of your user as "the user".(11:42)
alancooper对大家说: Choose one person to be your user. Imagine this person.(11:42)
umlchina对alancooper说: Larry Constantine use Essential Use Case for UI design(11:42)
fly cat对大家说: can your list some great interaction designers outside your own company, maybe they aredo
ing the samething butdo
n't call it interaction design.(11:42)
alancooper对大家说: Give this person a name.(11:43)
alancooper对大家说: "...great interaction designers...": Rob Haitani designed the Palm Pilot.(11:43)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: Howdo
you think c++?(11:44)
alancooper对大家说: Ben Schneiderman designed SmartMoney.com marketmap.(11:45)
alancooper对大家说: Learning C++ is as easy as learning to play the piano.(11:45)
fly cat对大家说: the personas(11:45)
extreme对大家说: I take it as " Learning C++ is as DIFFICULT as learning to play the piano."(11:45)
soonon进入聊天室.(11:45)
alancooper对大家说: Yes, we call them personas.(11:46)
alancooper对大家说: "DIFFICULT": YES!!(11:46)
umlchina对alancooper说: Where the web should go? Since HTML Suck.(11:46)
joy_wind进入聊天室.(11:46)
alancooper对大家说: "Where the web should go?": Smarter browser.(11:47)
joy_wind对大家说: Hello Cooper!(11:47)
alancooper对大家说: Hello!(11:47)
joy_wind对大家说: what is smarter browser(11:47)
smilemac进入聊天室.(11:47)
alancooper对大家说: "...smarter browser": It would be able to remember things, write things to disk, communicate with servers interactively....(11:48)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: You mean the SMART AGENT(11:49)
alancooper对大家说: It would have better interaction idioms, like drag and drop, scrolling, refreshing.(11:49)
extreme对大家说: "write thing to disk' security ?(11:49)
joy_wind对alancooper说: What kind technic will it introduce?(11:49)
litter_ok进入聊天室.(11:49)
umlchina对alancooper说: Smarter browser remember things: conflict with privacy?(11:49)
alancooper对大家说: "...security": Yes, that is a problem to solve. But it isn't very hard.(11:49)
fly cat对大家说: what if the interaction designers made some mistakes? they were so important in the whole project it is easy for them to ruin all things.(11:49)
alancooper对大家说: What if the programmers made some mistakes?(11:50)
extreme对大家说: fire him!(11:50)
extreme对大家说: just kidding.(11:50)
hard64进入聊天室.(11:50)
alancooper对大家说: "fire him!": Yes, a professional cannot afford mistakes.(11:51)
smilemac对大家说: Hi Alan, howdo
you think the confict between timing limitation and a good design for interaction in a project?(11:51)
joy_wind对alancooper说: good question(11:51)
fly cat对大家说: but mistakes is unavoidable(11:51)
alancooper对大家说: "timing limitation...": Why is there a time limit? Who made it too short? Why did he make it too short?(11:52)
alancooper对大家说: Whatdo
es he hope to gain by making time limit too short?(11:52)
joy_wind对alancooper说: time is money(11:52)
品雪对alancooper说: I take it(the advise), thank you.(11:52)
alancooper对大家说: "time is money": Wasted time is money.(11:52)
joy_wind对alancooper说: The boss care about his money we care about the project(11:53)
alancooper对大家说: The reason why managers give short time limits is because theydo
n't know what programmers aredo
ing.(11:53)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers can tell managers what programmers aredo
ing.(11:54)
alancooper对大家说: Interaction designers can get programmers more time to work.(11:54)
joy_wind对alancooper说: I cant agree u more!(11:54)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: YOU ARE RIGHT(11:54)
extreme对大家说: just as you mention in the book, the manager gotta deploy somethig.(11:54)
smilemac对alancooper说: Such as market press, budget, management level and so on. all these thing will cause the time limitation to a project. Many product are just the results of trade-off.(11:55)
extreme对大家说: and interaction turn into sort of project manager,(11:55)
alancooper对大家说: "...gotta deploy something": Only because hedo
esn't know what the program will look like until it isdo
ne.(11:55)
fly cat对大家说: I think interaction design more focus on user requirement than design(11:55)
alancooper对大家说: "...market press, budget...": all are excuses to hide that managerdo
esn't know what program willdo
or look like or how it will behave.(11:56)
alancooper对大家说: "...focus more on user requirement...": YES!!!(11:56)
soonon对大家说: agree(11:56)
alancooper对大家说: as I said before, interaction design is not the same thing as user interface design.(11:56)
extreme对大家说: so, who is gonna be responsible for what the software shoulddo
?(11:57)
extreme对大家说: interaction designer ?(11:57)
alancooper对大家说: "who...responsible...": The interaction designer is the person with the best skills for answering this question so that EVERYBODY wins.(11:57)
extreme对大家说: who control the proces ? interaction designer ?(11:57)
alancooper对大家说: The process should be controlled by a manager.(11:57)
joy_wind对alancooper说: what is concret works of the interaction designer?(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: The form and behavior of the program should be controlled by the interaction designer.(11:58)
extreme对大家说: so, the interaction designer looks like a analyst(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: The technology and the code should be controlled by the programmer.(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: "...analyst": One of the jobs of the interaction designer is analysis.(11:58)
smilemac对alancooper说: But how to judge how much value one interaction design means to user.(11:58)
kenxia微笑着对大家说: Control? By right or By Skill(11:58)
alancooper对大家说: But "Analysts"do
n't design.(11:58)
tipsyy对umlchina说: what things a interaction designer should todo
in a project?(11:59)
joy_wind对alancooper说: is a interaction designer more like an architecturer?(11:59)
alancooper对大家说: "By right or by skill": Whatdo
programmers control by today? Theydo
n't seem to have the necessary skill to design.(11:59)
extreme对大家说: but how can a guy turn into sort of analyst without the knowledge of programming ?(11:59)
alancooper对大家说: "...interaction designer...like architect": YES, YES, YES!!!!(11:59)
alancooper对大家说: "how can a guy...without...programming?": How can a programmer decide what users want?(12:00)
joy_wind对alancooper说: right!(12:00)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't mean the programmer should know the requirements, I just want to say(12:01)
extreme对大家说: a interaction designer should know something about programming in order todo
some analysis work.(12:02)
alancooper对大家说: why?(12:02)
alancooper对大家说: I think what you really mean is that you are worried that an interaction designer will ask you todo
something that is stupid.(12:03)
extreme对大家说: cause, Ido
n't think a person without any knowledge of programming can be a good analyst.(12:03)
alancooper对大家说: But a good, professional interaction designer would not design something that cannot be coded or would be slow to run.(12:04)
slo进入聊天室.(12:04)
joy_wind对alancooper说: interaction designer is not an analyst， right?(12:04)
品雪对alancooper说: you mean analysis is more like in uerser knowladgedo
main?(12:04)
tipsyy对alancooper说: then
please tell me, what should bedo
ne by a interaction designer in a project and what kind of responsibility of he or she to this project?(12:04)
smilemac对alancooper说: So he must know some thing about programing technologies(12:04)
alancooper对大家说: "...in user's...domain": YES(12:05)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't think a userdo
main expert is a perfect analyst(12:05)
developerly离开了聊天室.(12:05)
bungee_jumping进入聊天室.(12:05)
bungee_jumping对大家说: i think the two are Practically the same.(12:05)
alancooper对大家说: "...what kind of responsibility?": The interaction designer should be responsible for what the programdo
es and how it behaves.(12:05)
joy_wind对extreme说: Yes he could be!(12:06)
fcx123进入聊天室.(12:06)
alancooper对大家说: The first part of all of our design projects is a detailed research project into the problemdo
main.(12:06)
smilemac对alancooper说: Could the interaction designer and project manager is a same man?(12:07)
extreme对大家说: Yes,(12:07)
extreme对大家说: but then
, ,(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: "...the same man?": Why?(12:07)
fly cat对大家说: Time is over,do
you think it's better for me to finish this chatting?(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: Why ask an expert in one field to work in another field?(12:07)
extreme对大家说: Ido
n't think so for a large proejct.(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: Yes, I must go.(12:07)
alancooper对大家说: I have enjoyed talking with you all.(12:08)
alancooper对大家说: thank you very much!!!!!!(12:08)
smilemac对alancooper说: Sometimes, no more people.(12:08)
fly cat对大家说: Mr cooper(12:08)
extreme对大家说: bye, bye, Mr. Cooper, glad to meet you.(12:08)
fuzhong进入聊天室.(12:08)
alancooper对大家说: Goodbye(12:08)
fly cat对大家说: thank you very much(12:08)
joy_wind对alancooper说: Thank you，Cooper!(12:08)
品雪对alancooper说: good by, Mr cooper(12:08)
bungee_jumping对大家说: thanks,cooper(12:08)
smilemac对alancooper说: thank u(12:08)
品雪对alancooper说: glad to meet you(12:08)
soonon对大家说: bye, mr cooper(12:08)
umlchina对alancooper说: good night(12:08)
smilemac对alancooper说: bye, alan(12:08)
umlchina对alancooper说: and the exit button is at right -bottom(12:09)
joy_wind对alancooper说: Thank you,umlchian!(12:09)
extreme对大家说: bye, every one.(12:09)
yuminghui离开了聊天室.(12:09)
fly cat对大家说: so glad(12:09)
alancooper离开了聊天室.(12:09)