D
dbbdggdbbdgg
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
UMLChina第十期专家交流实录
北京时间2001年10月24日（星期三）20:00-22:00。（晚上）
嘉宾：叶云文先生，用户名ywye，计算机科学博士。Software Research Associates, Inc. (http://www.sra.co.jp/index-en.html)的主任研究员和科罗拉多大学计算机系Center for LifeLong Learning and Design (http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~l3d)的客座研究员。
主要研究领域:人机交互作用,软件复用,Software agents.交流重点：软件复用
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
http://www.smiling.com.cn/group/chat/check_login.ecgi?group_id=9986
如果你是新用户：
1. 先到http://www.smiling.com.cn，注册一个帐号。
2. 再到http://www.smiling.com.cn/search/groupinfo.ecgi?group_id=9986，加入umlchina小组。
3. 登录后，进入umlchina小组，然后点“聊天室”即可
umlchina对大家说: 20:00开始(19:56)
rodbare对zhushuangmin说: 软件复用，如何规划构件？(19:59)
umlchina对大家说: 如果不准时，请大家不要急，我下去打个电话，这次不会搞错了，但现在(20:00)
umlchina对大家说: 那边正是凌晨，所以。。。(20:01)
umlchina对大家说: 我现在就打(20:01)
rodbare对大家说: 大家有没有实行过复用的代码？(20:03)
ywye进入聊天室.(20:04)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾daole(20:04)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾：叶云文先生，用户名ywye，计算机科学博士。Software Research Associates, Inc. (http://www.sra.co.jp/index-en.html)的主任研究员和科罗拉多大学计算机系Center for LifeLong Learning and Design (http://www.cs.co(20:04)
ywye对大家说: Good morning. Or should I say good evening.(20:04)
umlchina对大家说: 主要研究领域:人机交互作用,软件复用,Software agents.(20:05)
umlchina对大家说: 交流重点：软件复用(20:05)
umlchina对大家说: 聊天颜色约定：提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色(20:05)
umlchina对大家说: 【大家请提问ywye】(20:05)
ywye对大家说: It is nice to be here. I might be a little bit sloppy, since it is so early in the morning here.(20:06)
xuxu1976很高兴地对大家说: 软件复用中的最新方向？谢谢(20:06)
ywye对大家说: I guess the most popular topic now is product-line analysis.(20:07)
umlchina对大家说: 感谢嘉宾牺牲自己的休息时间来和大家交流(20:07)
potian对大家说: what is product-line analysis?(20:08)
ywye对大家说: Another related topic is Aspect-oriented programming. although this is not exactly only a reuse topic, rather it is more related to programming languages.(20:08)
ywye对大家说: Product-line analysis a an approach of analyzing the similarity, commonality among a family of products.(20:08)
*umlchina对potian说: 提问颜色：草原之蓝(20:08)
*umlchina对potian说: 提问颜色：草原之蓝(20:08)
ywye对大家说: Such commonality is then
packed into reusable software components which are used in the constuction of products in the family.(20:09)
potian对大家说: How about aspect--oriented and adaptive programming?(20:09)
xuxu1976对大家说: But what is 'aspect'?(20:09)
xuxu1976对ywye说: The Component is the COM/CORBA/EJB, or other?(20:10)
ywye对大家说: For example, a company is developing several printer drivers. Those drivers will share a lot of commonality.(20:10)
potian对大家说: If you have know the commonality between two products,how can you reuse this common part,Some tools?(20:11)
ywye对大家说: Sorry, let's focus on product-line analysis a little bit. I will come back to aspect later.(20:12)
potian对大家说: or rebuild these common parts into an framework?(20:12)
ywye对大家说: At first, you need todo
an analysis in thatdo
main, or that family of products.(20:12)
hdw1978对大家说: will product-line component be limited by liscence?(20:13)
potian对大家说: or rebuild these common parts into an framework?(20:13)
ywye对大家说: You develop common reusable components before you develop newer products.(20:13)
ywye对大家说: When you are developing newer products, the system designers should take into consideration of the pre-built components.(20:13)
aloneme_live对大家说: what is uml?(20:14)
ywye对大家说: Product-line analysis is more about the process, not tools, though you might need tools support them. Tools are my research topic.(20:14)
potian对大家说: Is product-line analysis a method to build framework(and his component library) after products have been build?(20:15)
xuxu1976对ywye说: I think PL is more suitable for the big company.right?(20:15)
ywye对大家说: Yes, usually the product-line components are developed in a company, and therefore, they cannot be reused by outside people.(20:15)
hdw1978对大家说: how useful you think the 'product-line' will be? we all know things always change so fast!(20:15)
ywye对大家说: The result of the product-line analysis could include certain framework. The word reusable components include both code and framework, even requirements and sometimes(20:16)
ywye对大家说: patterns in the reuse community.(20:16)
umlchina对大家说: 【问问题－－可以用中文的】(20:17)
illfly微笑着对大家说: hi,ywye,in development,u plan for reuse?(20:17)
ywye对大家说: I think both xuxu1976 and hdw1978 hit right on the problem of product-line analysis.(20:17)
ywye对大家说: I personally believe this approach is difficult to achieve.(20:17)
踏冰对ywye说: 你好。教授(20:18)
ywye对大家说: It is difficult enough to develope one system to accomodate the changes of the requirements.(20:18)
ywye对大家说: It is clearly more difficult to develop for ado
main.(20:18)
aloneme_live对大家说: 为什么不说中文??你是老外码?(20:18)
ywye对大家说: Usually it is used by big companies like HP which has a lot of products developed in thatdo
main alreadly.(20:18)
踏冰对ywye说: 能告诉我, 你认为软件服用的关键是什么吗?(20:19)
illfly微笑着对ywye说: any other reason?(20:19)
potian对ywye说: Ralph johnson有一篇文章《evolve application framework》,能不能谈谈PLA和他描述的开发框架的相似和区别(20:19)
ywye对大家说: Sorry, I am Chinese. I just cannot type Chinese fast enough to keep the pace with you guys.(20:19)
ywye对大家说: In software development, you should always "plan" to reuse.(20:20)
hdw1978对大家说: ok, PL is nothing todo
with me now, haha
(20:20)
illfly微笑着对ywye说: so how u use reuse in ur opnion?(20:20)
ywye对大家说: But it is difficult to plan because there are so many uncertain issues.(20:20)
xuxu1976对ywye说: i was confuse with many method , such as component reuse, product reuse, framework reuse. could you give me some clear definition?(20:21)
ywye对大家说: Ido
n't buy too much those development methodogy.(20:21)
fcx123对ywye说: Ivar Jacboson在他的《软件重用》一书中将软件重用的能力与CMM的级别的关系分别是这样对应的：没有可重用构件（1级）、非标准的代码和模块重用（2级）、标准化的模块重用（3级）、体系结构及子系统的重用（4级）、重用时避免缺陷（5级），然而，CMM是针对软件过程的，而不是对程序模块的，请您谈谈对这一思想的看法？(20:21)
ywye对大家说: You know, my major research interest in human-computer interaction.(20:21)
ywye对大家说: So I am more into the human-centered approach. I think most software development is opportunistic, you cannot plan for everything.(20:22)
blood_li对ywye说: 请问cmm对一个企业回产生什么样的影响？(20:23)
illfly微笑着对ywye说: would u like expland opportunistic?(20:23)
ywye对大家说: Let me deal with xuxu1976' question first and then
fcx123's.(20:23)
potian对ywye说: PLA的目标是不是框架（和它的component library)?(20:23)
ywye对大家说: Software reuse is a concept. And the word component is overloaded.(20:23)
blood_li对ywye说: 我是指的负面的影响？(20:23)
ywye对大家说: Especially when componentware such as Beans, DCOM came along.(20:24)
踏冰对ywye说: Can u tell me the issue point of software reuse?(20:24)
ywye对大家说: Reusable artifacts can be many things. Code (also known as components), frameworks, pattern, architecture, subsystem are also reusable artifacts.(20:25)
ywye对fcx123说: Because software reuse is not only a technical issue, it is also the organizational and process issue.(20:26)
ywye对fcx123说: Therefore, it is not a surprise that CMM also talks about reuse.(20:26)
踏冰对ywye说: Can u tell me how u think of software reuse?(20:26)
ywye对fcx123说: When a company wants to institute a reuse program, it has to deal with the change of development processes.(20:27)
fcx123对ywye说: 谢谢，另一个部题：我们在实施软件重用的过程中，步子跨大了上下级就认为是本本主义，步子小了效果不明显，而且很多人都不以为然，认为他们也会这样做（重用），请您谈谈您在这方面的经验。(20:28)
ywye对fcx123说: I think the most important issue in reuse is that software developersdo
not know the existence of reusable components.(20:28)
ctm微笑着对ywye说: 能说一些软件复用方面的具体例子(20:29)
ywye对大家说: Sorry the previous answer was meant to 踏冰.(20:29)
ywye对fcx123说: So you are responsible for reuse in your organization. I am sorry to say that Ido
not have personal experience in that.(20:31)
aloneme_live对大家说: is software reuse is procedure and function reuse?(20:31)
踏冰对ywye说: thank u ....(20:31)
ywye对fcx123说: Your experience is very common in many reports that I have read.(20:31)
blakeli微笑着对ywye说:do
you think what is the most important problem in reuse research?(20:31)
potian对ywye说: PLA总是有一定的目标吧？发现模式、框架、体系结构，完全使用工具？我知道有很多研究专注于从代码发现design pattern,这些研究和PLA有什么关系，PLA使用什么样的研究方法？(20:31)
踏冰对ywye说: I see(20:31)
ywye对fcx123说: That is why reuse needs to support from managers.(20:31)
踏冰对ywye说: thank u again,,,I see(20:31)
ywye对fcx123说: But I think another way ofdo
ing it is directly appealing to programmers whodo
the job.(20:32)
ywye对fcx123说: Let them see and get the benefits of reusing.(20:32)
ywye对fcx123说: Keep in mind the overall goal is to improve the productivity and quality of development, not reuse per se.(20:32)
fcx123对ywye说: thankS!(20:33)
ywye对fcx123说: Reuse is not the ends, rather, it is the means.(20:33)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我想其实我们开发的一组公共函数本身就是体现了复用，只不过有了面向对象的概念之后，讲的更多的是你的类能不能复用，而一个类肯定不行，那就一组类，这一相关联的类不就形成了框架，或组件吗，不知我的讲法对不对(20:33)
踏冰对ywye说: what we shoulddo
to know the existence of reusable components.(20:33)
ctm微笑着对ywye说: howdo
programmers in reusing?(20:33)
ywye对aloneme_live说: Yes, procedure and function reuse is a part of software reuse, and by far the most common and successful.(20:34)
ywye对blakeli说: The most important issue to accomodate the reuse to the current practice of software developers.(20:34)
ywye对blakeli说: I have developed a tool called CodeBroker which can put components right into the editor of developers. If you are interested, you can take a loot at my website,(20:35)
ywye对blakeli说: which is www.cs.colorado.edu/~yunwen(20:35)
illfly微笑着对ywye说:do
u agree the principle KISS in development(20:36)
ywye对potian说: I have not seen too much tools developed specifically for PLA.(20:36)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 那我想其实大家在开发的过程中是不是流点心，就不难提炼出可复用的部分，特别是将界面和业务实现分开后，自然会想到复用，对吧(20:37)
blakeli微笑着对ywye说: Thank you!(20:37)
ywye对potian说: The overall goal is to define reusable components, which include all you have mentioned and aspects.(20:37)
ywye对potian说: This is a very new topic.(20:37)
ywye对potian说: Design pattern is more about patterns in general, not necessarily focusing on onedo
main.(20:38)
ywye对potian说:do
main analysis is often used in PLA.(20:38)
xuxu1976对大家说: Talk something about aspect?and feature?(20:38)
potian对ywye说: 那么分析模式呢？发现的粒度如何？(20:38)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: You are completely right.(20:39)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: The major difference between 框架 and 组件 is that framework needs to be instantiated, and a component is reused as it is(20:40)
xuxu1976对大家说: M.Griss(HP) presented a PLA method : feature-driven, aspect-oriented Component,do
you know it?(20:40)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 谢谢(20:40)
踏冰对ywye说: Can u tell me how you deal with software reuse in your project(20:41)
ywye对踏冰说: Two approaches. One is that you learn it before you program.(20:41)
potian对大家说: 框架的定义就是抽象类（互相有关系），但框架可以带有自己的component library，可以达到白箱服用(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: and the seconde one, which is my favorite, is to provide tool support.(20:42)
aloneme_live对大家说: software reuse is not the core of soft-develop,i think(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: The tool must be intelligent enough to guess what is needed by programmers which they are programming,(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: and then
deliver the related components to the programmers. I call such(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: tools Active Reuse Repository System, and I have developed one.(20:43)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我想问问您OOA,OOD 方面的问题，可以吗(20:43)
踏冰对ywye说: Please u introduce a good tool to me ?(20:43)
ywye对illfly说: Sorry, Ido
n't know KISS, could you spell it out?(20:43)
踏冰对ywye说: plese introduce a good tool to me(20:44)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: You are right. But the problem is when programmers are developing, they are thinking(20:44)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: more about the product itself, not about reusable components.(20:44)
blakeli微笑着对ywye说: 在你的工具中，智能体现在那些方面？(20:44)
fcx123对ywye说: 能不能谈谈Clear CASE及Rational公司的其他CASE工具在软件重用方面的作用和具体实施方法？(20:45)
illfly对ywye说: keep it simple , stip //i think if we want to reuse ,we can't(20:45)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: There is a big problem when you ask peopledo
things that they might not benefit but others will. People are not that unselfish.(20:45)
ywye对xuxu1976说: I think I need to come back to aspect.(20:46)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Aspect is a kind of crosscut concern in software development.(20:46)
xuxu1976对大家说: hehe.ok.aspect is a new concept.(20:46)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我觉得在画类图时，分析类之间的关系，比较困难，当然继承很明显，但组合和关联就很难区分，您有没有好的经验介绍一下(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Some problems such as safety, performance can not be addressed in one class,(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: and they needs to be considered in many classes in the same time.(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Current OO can't deal with such things.(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: A nice example of aspect is about debugging.(20:47)
xuxu1976对大家说: u mean the collaboration?(20:48)
ywye对xuxu1976说: When you are programming, you often want to insert a print statement in a method when the method is invoked or finished.(20:48)
xuxu1976对大家说: among the classes?(20:48)
ywye对xuxu1976说: In aspect-oriented programming, you can define this print statement as an aspect,(20:49)
ywye对xuxu1976说: and put the aspect in all the methods that you want to trace in a single construct.(20:49)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: I would like to know which is the better preferre language in developing reusable components?(20:50)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Aspect is a further step of separating concerns, this time not about the data abstraction or function abstraction.(20:50)
ywye对大家说: I can(20:50)
xuxu1976对大家说: can u give me some web site about 'aspect'? thx.(20:51)
ywye对大家说: I can't see anything now. Please wait for the page to be refreshed.(20:51)
xuxu1976对大家说: happyboy, the key is not the language, but the reuse method.(20:52)
umlchina对大家说: 【可以手工refresh中间frame，右键-->shua新】(20:52)
ywye对大家说: If I miss some questions, please forgive me.(20:52)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: in developing reusable components,which language is better ,c++ or JAVA?(20:53)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Yeah, I am aware of Griss's work. As I said before, the results of product-line analysis(20:53)
ywye对xuxu1976说: include many things, and aspects could be a part of it.(20:54)
xuxu1976对大家说: aspect is the higher level of function abstract? // could you give me some web site about 'aspect'?(20:54)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: in developing reusable components,which language is better ,c++ or JAVA?(20:53)(20:54)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: You can try. But I am not an expert on OOA and OOD.(20:54)
fcx123对ywye说: (没关系)again. 请您谈谈Clear CASE及Rational公司的其他CASE工具在软件重用方面的作用和具体实施方法？(20:55)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 谢谢(20:55)
ywye对踏冰说: I am not sure that one tool would solve all the problem. It depends on your priority.(20:55)
ywye对blakeli说: It can guess what compnents are related to the current task. But you cann't take "intelligent" too literally.(20:56)
踏冰对ywye说: I am a begin
er .please u introduce a good tool that fit for me.(20:56)
ywye对fcx123说: Ido
n't know Clear CASE. Rational is not designed with reuse in mind. You might need to add a reuse process to it.(20:57)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: in recent days ,there has been a log of reports about the combination of UML and XML,but ido
not know what XML cando
in designing reusable components?(20:57)
blakeli对大家说: I see. Howdo
you achieve it? Is there a knowledge base?(20:58)
踏冰对javafans说: //??(20:59)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我想问问构成组件的元素是什么(20:59)
ywye对xuxu1976说: No. Aspect is not a higher level of abstraction;
it is another kind of abstraction, like exceptional handling.(20:59)
ywye对xuxu1976说: you can goto www.aspectj.org(20:59)
xuxu1976对ywye说: talk something about UML and PLA?(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: XML could be used to describe something designed in UML.(21:01)
fcx123对ywye说: 知识库在软件重用方面占有重要的地位，请问您在构建软件企业知识库方面有什么好的经验和方法推存给我们？(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: XML is so popular, everyone wants to have something related to it.(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: You have to be careful when you hear that XML is used.(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: Even Microsoft is using XML in its Office suite.(21:02)
ehuayu对ywye说: XML could be used to describe something designed in UML? how todo
that?(21:02)
eport对ywye说: How can wo put reusable in Use Case ? If enter detail design,Can we del the uplevel Use Case?(21:03)
ywye对blakeli说: No, I did not use knowledge base. The system behaves like it has intelligence, but when it comes to implementation, it is all hard code.(21:03)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: whatdo
es PLA stand for?(21:04)
founder_chen微笑着对ywye说: can you tell us some about generic programming(21:04)
ehuayu对ywye说: I think XML is a pretty good method to discribe a lot of things, but is there any experience in UML?Is there any model(21:04)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: Here is the confusing part of terms in reuse.do
you mean componentware by 组件?(21:04)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: product line analyse(21:05)
ywye对xuxu1976说: UML and PLA are not directly related. You can use UML todo
some part of PLA, but you cando
PLA without any tools.(21:05)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: yes ,component(21:06)
myumlchina对ywye说: what is soft agent?(21:07)
ywye对fcx123说: The importance of creating any kind of repository (of knowledge or reusable components) is to consider to make its contents accessible to people when they are needed.(21:07)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: I am a begin
ner in this area,I just read one book about UML,and I know very little about it,would you please tell me which took I should use?(21:07)
ywye对fcx123说: You have to make the knowledge repository system to say the "right" thing to the "right" peple at the "right" time.(21:07)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: sorry,which tool I should use?(21:08)
illfly对ywye说: 现在又如此多的新技术如pattern,framework,architecture,pla,aspect/feature,cbd,reuse...，我们应该怎样学习？(21:08)
ywye对ehuayu说: XML is basically description language. You can use it to describe a design in UML so that people can find it later and reuse it.(21:08)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: there is not suitable tools for PLA.(21:09)
ehuayu对ywye说: dear ywye, can you tell us more detail on using XML for UML design? is there anydo
cuments for that?(21:09)
ywye对eport说: Use Case itself might be reused. But Use Case is about obtaining requirements from users, Ido
n't see why you need to consider reuse at this phase.(21:10)
umlchina对大家说: 【提问可以用中文的】(21:10)
ywye对eport说: After you have collected all use cases, you might need to think of reuse.(21:10)
ywye对eport说: Remember,do
not think too much of design when you are collecting requirements from users.(21:10)
myumlchina对ywye说:do
es software refer to "layman programming"?(21:11)
ywye对founder_chen说: Generic-programming. I am not sure about its current state.(21:11)
tomx对ywye说: 是否在考虑系统体系结构时才会考虑软件复用？(21:12)
ywye对founder_chen说: If my memorydo
es fail me, GP is developed from generative programming, which wants to automatically create programs from high-level specifications.(21:12)
blakeli对ywye说: Can you talk something about software agent ?(21:12)
ywye对founder_chen说: In fact, aspect programming has a lot of overlap with generic programming.(21:13)
ywye对illfly说: That is the hard and yet exciting part in this IT industry.(21:14)
ywye对illfly说: One of my colleagues is an expert of Smalltalk programming.(21:14)
ywye对illfly说: He said once that there are different ways (development methods and languages)(21:14)
ywye对illfly说: to the pinnacle of a mountain. If you chose one that is right for you and stick with it,(21:15)
ywye对illfly说: you can reach the pinnacle.(21:15)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 我该怎么开始学习UML呢有那么多的技术跟它相关(21:15)
zhushuangmin对大家说: 我想问一个愚蠢的问题－－－这里的PLA是什么意思(21:16)
illfly对ywye说: 3x(21:16)
ywye对ehuayu说: I am not aware of such work right now. Send me an email later at yunwen@cs.colorado.edu, I will try to dig out thing.(21:17)
xuxu1976对ywye说: U should practice it more.(21:17)
xuxu1976对ywye说: sorry,to happy(21:17)
ywye对tomx说: You should think of reuse at all phases of software development, but the earlier you think of it, the better the benefits.(21:18)
ywye对tomx说: Reusing at the architecture level is certainly a very desirable thing.(21:18)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: thank you very much(21:18)
ywye对blakeli说: Whatdo
you know about software agents?(21:19)
ehuayu对ywye说: thx a lot(21:19)
ywye对myumlchina说: I am sorry that I did not understand your question.(21:19)
xuxu1976对ywye说:do
you know the component composition?(21:20)
myumlchina对ywye说: sorry ,i want to know what is software agent(21:20)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: UML itself is not difficult. The difficult part is how to design. Once you know the design, itdo
es not matter you use UML or not.(21:21)
blakeli对ywye说: I think agent is more generic object. The core component of it is planner and knowledge base!(21:21)
xuxu1976对ywye说: software agent is relevant to PLA?(21:21)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: Using UML certainly will help others understand your design. Butdo
n't let the tool dictates your design.(21:21)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: I think Martin Folwer's book "UML distilled" is easy to read.(21:22)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: PLA is not People's Liberation Army, it refers to Product-Line Analysis(21:22)
xuxu1976对ywye说: hahahaha(21:23)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 谢谢(21:23)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: you are very humorous(21:23)
ywye对xuxu1976说: I think component composition referes to creating new systems with a combination of components. It is another way of saying reuse.(21:24)
ywye对myumlchina说: Software agents are a type of programs that act autonomously in response to the change of their environments.(21:25)
ywye对myumlchina说: The key featuer of software agents is usersdo
not need to give detailed control of the agents, which behave on their own. They have intentions.(21:25)
xuxu1976对ywye说: and I think that using COTS have some problems.whatdo
you think?(21:25)
ywye对xuxu1976说: No. Software agent is not related to PLA.(21:26)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: whatdo
es COTS stand for?(21:27)
blakeli对大家说:do
you make some research in agent?(21:27)
ywye对xuxu1976说: You are right. There are many problems with COTS now, such as performance, trust, control etc. What kind of problemsdo
you have in mind? I would love to hear about it.(21:27)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 可以购买到的第三方构件(21:28)
ywye对blakeli说: Yes, software agent is one of research interest. But most of the time I just use certain concepts of software agents.(21:28)
ywye对blakeli说: I am not a theorist in the software agent field.(21:29)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: COTS stands for Commercial-Off-The-Shelf(21:29)
xuxu1976对ywye说: In our projects, I can not find the suitable component.(21:30)
xuxu1976对ywye说: COTS's evolution is one problem(21:30)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Whatdo
you mean by "cannot find the suitalbe components"?(21:30)
xuxu1976对ywye说: and no regular market in COTS Field. I think.(21:31)
ywye对xuxu1976说:do
you mean theydo
n't exist, or you cannot retrieve it.do
you have a repository of components, and what tools (browsing or querying)do
you use to retrieve it?(21:31)
xuxu1976对ywye说: i have no tools.do
you have some suggest?(21:33)
ywye对xuxu1976说: It needs more time to develop a stable COTS market. But if the current COTS you are using is stable enough, even the COTS itself evolves, you can still use the old one.(21:33)
ywye对xuxu1976说: There is a nice book called "Superdistribution" might give you some hints on how to create a stable COTS market.(21:34)
xuxu1976对ywye说: 我朋友认为：永远找不到拿来就能用的构件。(21:34)
xuxu1976对ywye说: where can i find this book?(21:34)
ywye对xuxu1976说: You may need to put it into something like a library. But I am not sure if there is any general tool for that.(21:35)
xuxu1976对ywye说:do
you have some successful experience on COTS?(21:35)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Your friend is right, This is a problem in reuse, always similar, never the same.(21:36)
ywye对xuxu1976说: But,do
es he or she program with those API classes and methods coming with Java?(21:36)
ywye对xuxu1976说: No. I have neverdo
ne anything related with COTS. But I often use some public-domain or open-source stuff.(21:37)
xuxu1976对ywye说: NO. She is familiar with Delphi/COM+.(21:37)
ywye对xuxu1976说: You may find the book in www.amazon.com. This is a vision book, not technical one. But markets are vision thing.(21:38)
happyboyjmw对ywye说:do
you mean JAVA is a prosperous language in developing reuasble compnents?(21:38)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: Personally, I like C better. All programming languages can be used to develop good reusable components.(21:39)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: But Java enforces more disciplines.(21:40)
wangxp对ywye说: Dr. ye,do you know some new research about MODEL DRIVEN ARCHETECURE?(21:40)
ywye对xuxu1976说: My question actually meant that if she has known a component already,do
es she reuse it in design?(21:40)
ywye对wangxp说: Sorry, Ido
not know about Model Driven Architecture.(21:41)
xuxu1976对ywye说: ya.Only 1 component reused in this system.(21:41)
xuxu1976对ywye说: And She think the possibility of component reuse in later systems is higher.(21:43)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Thinking of programming in any language. When you know a reusable component (class, method, function), you would construct the new system around it.(21:43)
ywye对xuxu1976说: That is called bottom-up programming, or component composition.(21:43)
ywye对xuxu1976说: But if youdo
n't know components, you have to decompose the system and then
try to find one to match your design.(21:44)
ywye对xuxu1976说: At this phase, it oftens happens that you can't find one you need.(21:44)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Two things you cando
. Change the most close component, and put it back to the repository for the benefits of other designers.(21:44)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Or, change your design to accomodate the most close or similar component.(21:45)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Tha is right. When you are designing a second similar system, you can find a lot of reusable things from the previous one.(21:45)
netgo对ywye说: hi,yywye. Have you completed some books on OO?(21:46)
ywye对netgo说: No, I am not writing any book. I am not an OO expert.(21:46)
xuxu1976对ywye说: thx. Could you give us some advice on Software Reuse before you go?(21:47)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: There is very few books in market,I think this area must be new in china ,Am I right?(21:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: I think every software developer should have reuse in mind.(21:48)
airy对大家说: Dr ye, I am a programmer. My job is major in application system for TELCOM.it's complex and request changed often. how about REUSE in this field(21:48)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Many benefits of reuse will pay off in the long run, such as the maitenance phase.(21:48)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: no.from 60's somebody began to research reuse.(21:49)
xuxu1976对ywye说: ya.(21:50)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 不会吧那可真让你见笑了我对这领域不太熟悉(21:50)
xuxu1976对ywye说: maintain is a boring phase.(21:50)
netgo对ywye说: Are there some userful patterns about software reuse?(21:51)
ywye对airy说: a general advice is to pack those of possible changing requirements into a unit, and those whichdo
not change often into other units for reuse.(21:52)
ywye对netgo说:do
you mean design pattern by "pattern". Design patterns themselves are reusable.(21:53)
ywye对netgo说: They are reusable design knowledge, I should say, not code.(21:53)
netgo对ywye说: yes,i think so(21:54)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: If you mean reuse as a research field, it is as old as programming, or older, some would claim.(21:54)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: If you mean COTS market, it is kind of new.(21:54)
ywye对大家说: It is really nice to talk to you guys.do
you come often to this forum?(21:55)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: will you come here again?(21:56)
xuxu1976对ywye说: ya. www.umlchina.com is a good site.(21:56)
redkaka对大家说: redbug(21:56)
ywye对大家说: Now I have a question for you all. What motivates you to answer other's questions in this forum?(21:56)
airy对ywye说: in face, wedo
not know which would change exactly. We work for the UI, work flow, policy years and years. even there are some change from development tool.(21:56)
redkaka对大家说: I am cool blood(21:56)
airy对ywye说: maybe reuse is only suite for Product mode?(21:57)
ywye对airy说: Policy is apparently the part that changes most.(21:57)
xuxu1976对ywye说: interest(21:57)
redkaka对redbug说:(21:58)
ywye对airy说: You are absolutely right. That is why software development is so hard and so challenging.(21:58)
redkaka对ywye说: cewl(21:58)
ywye对airy说: As Brooks said, there is no silver bullet. No single methodology or tool will gurantee a good system.(21:58)
ywye对airy说: It the creative power of designers that blow life into the systems. That is why some claim software design is art, not engineering.(21:59)
redkaka对ywye说: software development maybe be challenging(21:59)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: will you be here again?(21:59)
airy对ywye说: also make so many market and employee chance(21:59)
airy对ywye说: You are right!(22:00)
ywye对airy说: and earn big money.(22:00)
umlchina对大家说: 【OK，时间差不多了，谢谢叶博士，一大早爬起来，辛苦了】(22:00)
umlchina对大家说: 也谢谢大家的光临(22:00)
xuxu1976对ywye说: thanks a lot.(22:00)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: thank you very much(22:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: I will try if I have time. The only problem is that your prime time is not good for me.(22:01)
redkaka对umlchina说: 你做收尾的工作？(22:01)
palmkb对大家说:do
nt' leave a~~~~(22:01)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: 呵呵(22:01)
airy对ywye说: I think OO and reuse is an inspiration from our society. but it's independent. it need union(22:01)
ywye对大家说: 谢谢大家. 讨论很有意思!(22:02)
airy对ywye说: a, time up?(22:02)
redkaka对umlchina说: union 很重要(22:02)
redkaka对umlchina说: 做任何事情都一样(22:02)
airy微笑着对ywye说: 再见！前路风雨多，多珍重啊！(22:02)
ywye对airy说: Reuse exists in all fields, and is as old as human history. We all reuse words spoken by our ancestors.(22:02)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: I think you have a lot of experience in this area,how long have you been working on it?(22:03)
redkaka对airy说: drain away the mud and bring in fresh water(22:03)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 3-4 years(22:04)
ywye对大家说: A lot of thanks to jypan, who made this possible. A lot of thanks to all participants who made this really interesting.(22:04)
muyq对大家说: TOO LATE(22:04)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: 注意休息呀(22:04)
ywye对大家说: goodbye, guys and gals!(22:04)
ywye离开了聊天室.(22:05)
xuxu1976对umlchina说: which is the next topic?(22:05)
redkaka对redbug说: 走吧(22:05)
redkaka对redbug说: 他已经走了(22:05)
muyq对大家说: 来得太迟了(22:05)
umlchina对大家说: OK，大家有兴趣可以继续留下来(22:06)
happyboyjmw对大家说: It is really interesting here(22:06)
redkaka对redbug说: we should set long narrow flag to call back the spirit of the dead(22:06)
redkaka对redbug说: haha(22:06)
muyq对大家说: 不知道已经讨论了什么？(22:06)
airy微笑着对大家说: 乱了点，讨论方式要改改(22:06)
redkaka对muyq说: 我也不知道(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: 不知道有没有人注意我的话了，呵呵(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: so lucky man(22:07)
umlchina对大家说: 聊天记录明天出来(22:07)
muyq对redkaka说: 同病相怜，哈哈(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: but be out of place(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: hehe cewl(22:08)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: developing reusable components好像是个很大的话题我现在不知道该从何处下手(22:08)
xuxu1976对umlchina说: thx.(22:08)
redkaka对muyq说: we are in the same boat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(22:08)
redkaka对muyq说: hehe(22:08)
redkaka对umlchina说: mail给我们吧(22:09)
muyq对redkaka说: 明天看论坛吧(22:09)
xuxu1976对大家说: 第一个系统很难重用。(22:09)
垃圾猪对happyboyjmw说: 设计模式可能对你有用(22:09)
muyq对redkaka说: UMLCHIAN很忙的，他会MAIL给你吗(22:09)
happyboyjmw对umlchina说: will I be notified if there is other guest here?(22:09)
垃圾猪对happyboyjmw说: 这聊天室太差了，老是刷(22:09)
muyq对umlchina说: 可以的话，也MAIL给我一份(22:10)
happyboyjmw对垃圾猪说: 我头一次来这里(22:10)
happyboyjmw对垃圾猪说: 我看过了sun出版的thinging in pattern(22:11)
muyq对大家说: 难道我们就不能用IRC协议聊天室吗(22:11)
垃圾猪对大家说: 走了，umlchina，明天把聊天记录贴在论坛好吧！(22:11)
垃圾猪对大家说: 可以呀，这破聊天室，谁写的，老刷(22:12)
muyq对大家说: 肯定比这个快多了，UMLCHIAN可以提个议(22:13)
muyq对大家说: 走了，大家再见(22:15)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: u should find the 个性和共性。(22:15)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 我主要研究JAVA ，所以没有大局观(22:16)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 有没有好的网站给推荐几个？(22:17)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 网址我不记得了。但carma mcclure是个大师。(22:19)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: umlchina上好像有本重用大全吧。(22:20)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 我刚上那个网站(22:21)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 搞设计是不是比编码容易一些？(22:21)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 赫赫。好的设计很难的。(22:22)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 我认为编码难度会小些。(22:24)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 设计主要是一种思维吧，编码就跟机器一样(22:24)
eport对大家说: 现在有没有PSP的中文书？(22:24)
eport对大家说: 那里可以买到？(22:24)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 他说的是PSP(22:24)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 是什么意思(22:24)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 什么是PSP(22:25)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: china-pub(22:25)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: personal software process(22:26)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: i'm afraid that i have to go now.(22:27)
daystar对大家说: 也不知道今天的讨论说了些什么。。。(22:27)
eport对happyboyjmw说: Personal Software Process(22:27)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 个人软件过程，应该这么翻译的吧(22:27)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: c u later. my mail add is xuxu1976@sina.com. u r welcome.(22:27)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 是指导程序员用的(22:27)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 好吧有问题我就会麻烦你的(22:28)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 弱xuxu1976可真是个高手啊(22:28)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 你是搞编程还是设计的(22:29)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 不过我还得看看明天的记录(22:30)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 我对设计这方面可真是外行，(22:30)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 我什么都是刚刚开始(22:30)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 实际上应该编程在先的吧？(22:31)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 我觉得设计抓不住头绪，不知道该从何下手而且他们刚才讨论还有许多新技术，都没听说过(22:32)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 再见，我要走 了 mail : mouse.wu@263.net(22:32)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 好再见，我会联系你的(22:33)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 是啊，设计这一方面本来就有很多新的概念(22:33)
l5进入聊天室.(22:33)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 我想我们应该抓住思想(22:34)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 再见(22:34)
北京时间2001年10月24日（星期三）20:00-22:00。（晚上）
嘉宾：叶云文先生，用户名ywye，计算机科学博士。Software Research Associates, Inc. (http://www.sra.co.jp/index-en.html)的主任研究员和科罗拉多大学计算机系Center for LifeLong Learning and Design (http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~l3d)的客座研究员。
主要研究领域:人机交互作用,软件复用,Software agents.交流重点：软件复用
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
http://www.smiling.com.cn/group/chat/check_login.ecgi?group_id=9986
如果你是新用户：
1. 先到http://www.smiling.com.cn，注册一个帐号。
2. 再到http://www.smiling.com.cn/search/groupinfo.ecgi?group_id=9986，加入umlchina小组。
3. 登录后，进入umlchina小组，然后点“聊天室”即可
umlchina对大家说: 20:00开始(19:56)
rodbare对zhushuangmin说: 软件复用，如何规划构件？(19:59)
umlchina对大家说: 如果不准时，请大家不要急，我下去打个电话，这次不会搞错了，但现在(20:00)
umlchina对大家说: 那边正是凌晨，所以。。。(20:01)
umlchina对大家说: 我现在就打(20:01)
rodbare对大家说: 大家有没有实行过复用的代码？(20:03)
ywye进入聊天室.(20:04)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾daole(20:04)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾：叶云文先生，用户名ywye，计算机科学博士。Software Research Associates, Inc. (http://www.sra.co.jp/index-en.html)的主任研究员和科罗拉多大学计算机系Center for LifeLong Learning and Design (http://www.cs.co(20:04)
ywye对大家说: Good morning. Or should I say good evening.(20:04)
umlchina对大家说: 主要研究领域:人机交互作用,软件复用,Software agents.(20:05)
umlchina对大家说: 交流重点：软件复用(20:05)
umlchina对大家说: 聊天颜色约定：提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色(20:05)
umlchina对大家说: 【大家请提问ywye】(20:05)
ywye对大家说: It is nice to be here. I might be a little bit sloppy, since it is so early in the morning here.(20:06)
xuxu1976很高兴地对大家说: 软件复用中的最新方向？谢谢(20:06)
ywye对大家说: I guess the most popular topic now is product-line analysis.(20:07)
umlchina对大家说: 感谢嘉宾牺牲自己的休息时间来和大家交流(20:07)
potian对大家说: what is product-line analysis?(20:08)
ywye对大家说: Another related topic is Aspect-oriented programming. although this is not exactly only a reuse topic, rather it is more related to programming languages.(20:08)
ywye对大家说: Product-line analysis a an approach of analyzing the similarity, commonality among a family of products.(20:08)
*umlchina对potian说: 提问颜色：草原之蓝(20:08)
*umlchina对potian说: 提问颜色：草原之蓝(20:08)
ywye对大家说: Such commonality is then
packed into reusable software components which are used in the constuction of products in the family.(20:09)
potian对大家说: How about aspect--oriented and adaptive programming?(20:09)
xuxu1976对大家说: But what is 'aspect'?(20:09)
xuxu1976对ywye说: The Component is the COM/CORBA/EJB, or other?(20:10)
ywye对大家说: For example, a company is developing several printer drivers. Those drivers will share a lot of commonality.(20:10)
potian对大家说: If you have know the commonality between two products,how can you reuse this common part,Some tools?(20:11)
ywye对大家说: Sorry, let's focus on product-line analysis a little bit. I will come back to aspect later.(20:12)
potian对大家说: or rebuild these common parts into an framework?(20:12)
ywye对大家说: At first, you need todo
an analysis in thatdo
main, or that family of products.(20:12)
hdw1978对大家说: will product-line component be limited by liscence?(20:13)
potian对大家说: or rebuild these common parts into an framework?(20:13)
ywye对大家说: You develop common reusable components before you develop newer products.(20:13)
ywye对大家说: When you are developing newer products, the system designers should take into consideration of the pre-built components.(20:13)
aloneme_live对大家说: what is uml?(20:14)
ywye对大家说: Product-line analysis is more about the process, not tools, though you might need tools support them. Tools are my research topic.(20:14)
potian对大家说: Is product-line analysis a method to build framework(and his component library) after products have been build?(20:15)
xuxu1976对ywye说: I think PL is more suitable for the big company.right?(20:15)
ywye对大家说: Yes, usually the product-line components are developed in a company, and therefore, they cannot be reused by outside people.(20:15)
hdw1978对大家说: how useful you think the 'product-line' will be? we all know things always change so fast!(20:15)
ywye对大家说: The result of the product-line analysis could include certain framework. The word reusable components include both code and framework, even requirements and sometimes(20:16)
ywye对大家说: patterns in the reuse community.(20:16)
umlchina对大家说: 【问问题－－可以用中文的】(20:17)
illfly微笑着对大家说: hi,ywye,in development,u plan for reuse?(20:17)
ywye对大家说: I think both xuxu1976 and hdw1978 hit right on the problem of product-line analysis.(20:17)
ywye对大家说: I personally believe this approach is difficult to achieve.(20:17)
踏冰对ywye说: 你好。教授(20:18)
ywye对大家说: It is difficult enough to develope one system to accomodate the changes of the requirements.(20:18)
ywye对大家说: It is clearly more difficult to develop for ado
main.(20:18)
aloneme_live对大家说: 为什么不说中文??你是老外码?(20:18)
ywye对大家说: Usually it is used by big companies like HP which has a lot of products developed in thatdo
main alreadly.(20:18)
踏冰对ywye说: 能告诉我, 你认为软件服用的关键是什么吗?(20:19)
illfly微笑着对ywye说: any other reason?(20:19)
potian对ywye说: Ralph johnson有一篇文章《evolve application framework》,能不能谈谈PLA和他描述的开发框架的相似和区别(20:19)
ywye对大家说: Sorry, I am Chinese. I just cannot type Chinese fast enough to keep the pace with you guys.(20:19)
ywye对大家说: In software development, you should always "plan" to reuse.(20:20)
hdw1978对大家说: ok, PL is nothing todo
with me now, haha
(20:20)illfly微笑着对ywye说: so how u use reuse in ur opnion?(20:20)
ywye对大家说: But it is difficult to plan because there are so many uncertain issues.(20:20)
xuxu1976对ywye说: i was confuse with many method , such as component reuse, product reuse, framework reuse. could you give me some clear definition?(20:21)
ywye对大家说: Ido
n't buy too much those development methodogy.(20:21)
fcx123对ywye说: Ivar Jacboson在他的《软件重用》一书中将软件重用的能力与CMM的级别的关系分别是这样对应的：没有可重用构件（1级）、非标准的代码和模块重用（2级）、标准化的模块重用（3级）、体系结构及子系统的重用（4级）、重用时避免缺陷（5级），然而，CMM是针对软件过程的，而不是对程序模块的，请您谈谈对这一思想的看法？(20:21)
ywye对大家说: You know, my major research interest in human-computer interaction.(20:21)
ywye对大家说: So I am more into the human-centered approach. I think most software development is opportunistic, you cannot plan for everything.(20:22)
blood_li对ywye说: 请问cmm对一个企业回产生什么样的影响？(20:23)
illfly微笑着对ywye说: would u like expland opportunistic?(20:23)
ywye对大家说: Let me deal with xuxu1976' question first and then
fcx123's.(20:23)
potian对ywye说: PLA的目标是不是框架（和它的component library)?(20:23)
ywye对大家说: Software reuse is a concept. And the word component is overloaded.(20:23)
blood_li对ywye说: 我是指的负面的影响？(20:23)
ywye对大家说: Especially when componentware such as Beans, DCOM came along.(20:24)
踏冰对ywye说: Can u tell me the issue point of software reuse?(20:24)
ywye对大家说: Reusable artifacts can be many things. Code (also known as components), frameworks, pattern, architecture, subsystem are also reusable artifacts.(20:25)
ywye对fcx123说: Because software reuse is not only a technical issue, it is also the organizational and process issue.(20:26)
ywye对fcx123说: Therefore, it is not a surprise that CMM also talks about reuse.(20:26)
踏冰对ywye说: Can u tell me how u think of software reuse?(20:26)
ywye对fcx123说: When a company wants to institute a reuse program, it has to deal with the change of development processes.(20:27)
fcx123对ywye说: 谢谢，另一个部题：我们在实施软件重用的过程中，步子跨大了上下级就认为是本本主义，步子小了效果不明显，而且很多人都不以为然，认为他们也会这样做（重用），请您谈谈您在这方面的经验。(20:28)
ywye对fcx123说: I think the most important issue in reuse is that software developersdo
not know the existence of reusable components.(20:28)
ctm微笑着对ywye说: 能说一些软件复用方面的具体例子(20:29)
ywye对大家说: Sorry the previous answer was meant to 踏冰.(20:29)
ywye对fcx123说: So you are responsible for reuse in your organization. I am sorry to say that Ido
not have personal experience in that.(20:31)
aloneme_live对大家说: is software reuse is procedure and function reuse?(20:31)
踏冰对ywye说: thank u ....(20:31)
ywye对fcx123说: Your experience is very common in many reports that I have read.(20:31)
blakeli微笑着对ywye说:do
you think what is the most important problem in reuse research?(20:31)
potian对ywye说: PLA总是有一定的目标吧？发现模式、框架、体系结构，完全使用工具？我知道有很多研究专注于从代码发现design pattern,这些研究和PLA有什么关系，PLA使用什么样的研究方法？(20:31)
踏冰对ywye说: I see(20:31)
ywye对fcx123说: That is why reuse needs to support from managers.(20:31)
踏冰对ywye说: thank u again,,,I see(20:31)
ywye对fcx123说: But I think another way ofdo
ing it is directly appealing to programmers whodo
the job.(20:32)
ywye对fcx123说: Let them see and get the benefits of reusing.(20:32)
ywye对fcx123说: Keep in mind the overall goal is to improve the productivity and quality of development, not reuse per se.(20:32)
fcx123对ywye说: thankS!(20:33)
ywye对fcx123说: Reuse is not the ends, rather, it is the means.(20:33)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我想其实我们开发的一组公共函数本身就是体现了复用，只不过有了面向对象的概念之后，讲的更多的是你的类能不能复用，而一个类肯定不行，那就一组类，这一相关联的类不就形成了框架，或组件吗，不知我的讲法对不对(20:33)
踏冰对ywye说: what we shoulddo
to know the existence of reusable components.(20:33)
ctm微笑着对ywye说: howdo
programmers in reusing?(20:33)
ywye对aloneme_live说: Yes, procedure and function reuse is a part of software reuse, and by far the most common and successful.(20:34)
ywye对blakeli说: The most important issue to accomodate the reuse to the current practice of software developers.(20:34)
ywye对blakeli说: I have developed a tool called CodeBroker which can put components right into the editor of developers. If you are interested, you can take a loot at my website,(20:35)
ywye对blakeli说: which is www.cs.colorado.edu/~yunwen(20:35)
illfly微笑着对ywye说:do
u agree the principle KISS in development(20:36)
ywye对potian说: I have not seen too much tools developed specifically for PLA.(20:36)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 那我想其实大家在开发的过程中是不是流点心，就不难提炼出可复用的部分，特别是将界面和业务实现分开后，自然会想到复用，对吧(20:37)
blakeli微笑着对ywye说: Thank you!(20:37)
ywye对potian说: The overall goal is to define reusable components, which include all you have mentioned and aspects.(20:37)
ywye对potian说: This is a very new topic.(20:37)
ywye对potian说: Design pattern is more about patterns in general, not necessarily focusing on onedo
main.(20:38)
ywye对potian说:do
main analysis is often used in PLA.(20:38)
xuxu1976对大家说: Talk something about aspect?and feature?(20:38)
potian对ywye说: 那么分析模式呢？发现的粒度如何？(20:38)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: You are completely right.(20:39)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: The major difference between 框架 and 组件 is that framework needs to be instantiated, and a component is reused as it is(20:40)
xuxu1976对大家说: M.Griss(HP) presented a PLA method : feature-driven, aspect-oriented Component,do
you know it?(20:40)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 谢谢(20:40)
踏冰对ywye说: Can u tell me how you deal with software reuse in your project(20:41)
ywye对踏冰说: Two approaches. One is that you learn it before you program.(20:41)
potian对大家说: 框架的定义就是抽象类（互相有关系），但框架可以带有自己的component library，可以达到白箱服用(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: and the seconde one, which is my favorite, is to provide tool support.(20:42)
aloneme_live对大家说: software reuse is not the core of soft-develop,i think(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: The tool must be intelligent enough to guess what is needed by programmers which they are programming,(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: and then
deliver the related components to the programmers. I call such(20:42)
ywye对踏冰说: tools Active Reuse Repository System, and I have developed one.(20:43)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我想问问您OOA,OOD 方面的问题，可以吗(20:43)
踏冰对ywye说: Please u introduce a good tool to me ?(20:43)
ywye对illfly说: Sorry, Ido
n't know KISS, could you spell it out?(20:43)
踏冰对ywye说: plese introduce a good tool to me(20:44)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: You are right. But the problem is when programmers are developing, they are thinking(20:44)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: more about the product itself, not about reusable components.(20:44)
blakeli微笑着对ywye说: 在你的工具中，智能体现在那些方面？(20:44)
fcx123对ywye说: 能不能谈谈Clear CASE及Rational公司的其他CASE工具在软件重用方面的作用和具体实施方法？(20:45)
illfly对ywye说: keep it simple , stip //i think if we want to reuse ,we can't(20:45)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: There is a big problem when you ask peopledo
things that they might not benefit but others will. People are not that unselfish.(20:45)
ywye对xuxu1976说: I think I need to come back to aspect.(20:46)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Aspect is a kind of crosscut concern in software development.(20:46)
xuxu1976对大家说: hehe.ok.aspect is a new concept.(20:46)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我觉得在画类图时，分析类之间的关系，比较困难，当然继承很明显，但组合和关联就很难区分，您有没有好的经验介绍一下(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Some problems such as safety, performance can not be addressed in one class,(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: and they needs to be considered in many classes in the same time.(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Current OO can't deal with such things.(20:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: A nice example of aspect is about debugging.(20:47)
xuxu1976对大家说: u mean the collaboration?(20:48)
ywye对xuxu1976说: When you are programming, you often want to insert a print statement in a method when the method is invoked or finished.(20:48)
xuxu1976对大家说: among the classes?(20:48)
ywye对xuxu1976说: In aspect-oriented programming, you can define this print statement as an aspect,(20:49)
ywye对xuxu1976说: and put the aspect in all the methods that you want to trace in a single construct.(20:49)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: I would like to know which is the better preferre language in developing reusable components?(20:50)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Aspect is a further step of separating concerns, this time not about the data abstraction or function abstraction.(20:50)
ywye对大家说: I can(20:50)
xuxu1976对大家说: can u give me some web site about 'aspect'? thx.(20:51)
ywye对大家说: I can't see anything now. Please wait for the page to be refreshed.(20:51)
xuxu1976对大家说: happyboy, the key is not the language, but the reuse method.(20:52)
umlchina对大家说: 【可以手工refresh中间frame，右键-->shua新】(20:52)
ywye对大家说: If I miss some questions, please forgive me.(20:52)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: in developing reusable components,which language is better ,c++ or JAVA?(20:53)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Yeah, I am aware of Griss's work. As I said before, the results of product-line analysis(20:53)
ywye对xuxu1976说: include many things, and aspects could be a part of it.(20:54)
xuxu1976对大家说: aspect is the higher level of function abstract? // could you give me some web site about 'aspect'?(20:54)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: in developing reusable components,which language is better ,c++ or JAVA?(20:53)(20:54)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: You can try. But I am not an expert on OOA and OOD.(20:54)
fcx123对ywye说: (没关系)again. 请您谈谈Clear CASE及Rational公司的其他CASE工具在软件重用方面的作用和具体实施方法？(20:55)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 谢谢(20:55)
ywye对踏冰说: I am not sure that one tool would solve all the problem. It depends on your priority.(20:55)
ywye对blakeli说: It can guess what compnents are related to the current task. But you cann't take "intelligent" too literally.(20:56)
踏冰对ywye说: I am a begin
er .please u introduce a good tool that fit for me.(20:56)
ywye对fcx123说: Ido
n't know Clear CASE. Rational is not designed with reuse in mind. You might need to add a reuse process to it.(20:57)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: in recent days ,there has been a log of reports about the combination of UML and XML,but ido
not know what XML cando
in designing reusable components?(20:57)
blakeli对大家说: I see. Howdo
you achieve it? Is there a knowledge base?(20:58)
踏冰对javafans说: //??(20:59)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 我想问问构成组件的元素是什么(20:59)
ywye对xuxu1976说: No. Aspect is not a higher level of abstraction;
it is another kind of abstraction, like exceptional handling.(20:59)
ywye对xuxu1976说: you can goto www.aspectj.org(20:59)
xuxu1976对ywye说: talk something about UML and PLA?(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: XML could be used to describe something designed in UML.(21:01)
fcx123对ywye说: 知识库在软件重用方面占有重要的地位，请问您在构建软件企业知识库方面有什么好的经验和方法推存给我们？(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: XML is so popular, everyone wants to have something related to it.(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: You have to be careful when you hear that XML is used.(21:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: Even Microsoft is using XML in its Office suite.(21:02)
ehuayu对ywye说: XML could be used to describe something designed in UML? how todo
that?(21:02)
eport对ywye说: How can wo put reusable in Use Case ? If enter detail design,Can we del the uplevel Use Case?(21:03)
ywye对blakeli说: No, I did not use knowledge base. The system behaves like it has intelligence, but when it comes to implementation, it is all hard code.(21:03)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: whatdo
es PLA stand for?(21:04)
founder_chen微笑着对ywye说: can you tell us some about generic programming(21:04)
ehuayu对ywye说: I think XML is a pretty good method to discribe a lot of things, but is there any experience in UML?Is there any model(21:04)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: Here is the confusing part of terms in reuse.do
you mean componentware by 组件?(21:04)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: product line analyse(21:05)
ywye对xuxu1976说: UML and PLA are not directly related. You can use UML todo
some part of PLA, but you cando
PLA without any tools.(21:05)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: yes ,component(21:06)
myumlchina对ywye说: what is soft agent?(21:07)
ywye对fcx123说: The importance of creating any kind of repository (of knowledge or reusable components) is to consider to make its contents accessible to people when they are needed.(21:07)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: I am a begin
ner in this area,I just read one book about UML,and I know very little about it,would you please tell me which took I should use?(21:07)
ywye对fcx123说: You have to make the knowledge repository system to say the "right" thing to the "right" peple at the "right" time.(21:07)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: sorry,which tool I should use?(21:08)
illfly对ywye说: 现在又如此多的新技术如pattern,framework,architecture,pla,aspect/feature,cbd,reuse...，我们应该怎样学习？(21:08)
ywye对ehuayu说: XML is basically description language. You can use it to describe a design in UML so that people can find it later and reuse it.(21:08)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: there is not suitable tools for PLA.(21:09)
ehuayu对ywye说: dear ywye, can you tell us more detail on using XML for UML design? is there anydo
cuments for that?(21:09)
ywye对eport说: Use Case itself might be reused. But Use Case is about obtaining requirements from users, Ido
n't see why you need to consider reuse at this phase.(21:10)
umlchina对大家说: 【提问可以用中文的】(21:10)
ywye对eport说: After you have collected all use cases, you might need to think of reuse.(21:10)
ywye对eport说: Remember,do
not think too much of design when you are collecting requirements from users.(21:10)
myumlchina对ywye说:do
es software refer to "layman programming"?(21:11)
ywye对founder_chen说: Generic-programming. I am not sure about its current state.(21:11)
tomx对ywye说: 是否在考虑系统体系结构时才会考虑软件复用？(21:12)
ywye对founder_chen说: If my memorydo
es fail me, GP is developed from generative programming, which wants to automatically create programs from high-level specifications.(21:12)
blakeli对ywye说: Can you talk something about software agent ?(21:12)
ywye对founder_chen说: In fact, aspect programming has a lot of overlap with generic programming.(21:13)
ywye对illfly说: That is the hard and yet exciting part in this IT industry.(21:14)
ywye对illfly说: One of my colleagues is an expert of Smalltalk programming.(21:14)
ywye对illfly说: He said once that there are different ways (development methods and languages)(21:14)
ywye对illfly说: to the pinnacle of a mountain. If you chose one that is right for you and stick with it,(21:15)
ywye对illfly说: you can reach the pinnacle.(21:15)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 我该怎么开始学习UML呢有那么多的技术跟它相关(21:15)
zhushuangmin对大家说: 我想问一个愚蠢的问题－－－这里的PLA是什么意思(21:16)
illfly对ywye说: 3x(21:16)
ywye对ehuayu说: I am not aware of such work right now. Send me an email later at yunwen@cs.colorado.edu, I will try to dig out thing.(21:17)
xuxu1976对ywye说: U should practice it more.(21:17)
xuxu1976对ywye说: sorry,to happy(21:17)
ywye对tomx说: You should think of reuse at all phases of software development, but the earlier you think of it, the better the benefits.(21:18)
ywye对tomx说: Reusing at the architecture level is certainly a very desirable thing.(21:18)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: thank you very much(21:18)
ywye对blakeli说: Whatdo
you know about software agents?(21:19)
ehuayu对ywye说: thx a lot(21:19)
ywye对myumlchina说: I am sorry that I did not understand your question.(21:19)
xuxu1976对ywye说:do
you know the component composition?(21:20)
myumlchina对ywye说: sorry ,i want to know what is software agent(21:20)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: UML itself is not difficult. The difficult part is how to design. Once you know the design, itdo
es not matter you use UML or not.(21:21)
blakeli对ywye说: I think agent is more generic object. The core component of it is planner and knowledge base!(21:21)
xuxu1976对ywye说: software agent is relevant to PLA?(21:21)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: Using UML certainly will help others understand your design. Butdo
n't let the tool dictates your design.(21:21)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: I think Martin Folwer's book "UML distilled" is easy to read.(21:22)
ywye对zhushuangmin说: PLA is not People's Liberation Army
, it refers to Product-Line Analysis(21:22)xuxu1976对ywye说: hahahaha(21:23)
zhushuangmin对ywye说: 谢谢(21:23)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: you are very humorous(21:23)
ywye对xuxu1976说: I think component composition referes to creating new systems with a combination of components. It is another way of saying reuse.(21:24)
ywye对myumlchina说: Software agents are a type of programs that act autonomously in response to the change of their environments.(21:25)
ywye对myumlchina说: The key featuer of software agents is usersdo
not need to give detailed control of the agents, which behave on their own. They have intentions.(21:25)
xuxu1976对ywye说: and I think that using COTS have some problems.whatdo
you think?(21:25)
ywye对xuxu1976说: No. Software agent is not related to PLA.(21:26)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: whatdo
es COTS stand for?(21:27)
blakeli对大家说:do
you make some research in agent?(21:27)
ywye对xuxu1976说: You are right. There are many problems with COTS now, such as performance, trust, control etc. What kind of problemsdo
you have in mind? I would love to hear about it.(21:27)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 可以购买到的第三方构件(21:28)
ywye对blakeli说: Yes, software agent is one of research interest. But most of the time I just use certain concepts of software agents.(21:28)
ywye对blakeli说: I am not a theorist in the software agent field.(21:29)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: COTS stands for Commercial-Off-The-Shelf(21:29)
xuxu1976对ywye说: In our projects, I can not find the suitable component.(21:30)
xuxu1976对ywye说: COTS's evolution is one problem(21:30)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Whatdo
you mean by "cannot find the suitalbe components"?(21:30)
xuxu1976对ywye说: and no regular market in COTS Field. I think.(21:31)
ywye对xuxu1976说:do
you mean theydo
n't exist, or you cannot retrieve it.do
you have a repository of components, and what tools (browsing or querying)do
you use to retrieve it?(21:31)
xuxu1976对ywye说: i have no tools.do
you have some suggest?(21:33)
ywye对xuxu1976说: It needs more time to develop a stable COTS market. But if the current COTS you are using is stable enough, even the COTS itself evolves, you can still use the old one.(21:33)
ywye对xuxu1976说: There is a nice book called "Superdistribution" might give you some hints on how to create a stable COTS market.(21:34)
xuxu1976对ywye说: 我朋友认为：永远找不到拿来就能用的构件。(21:34)
xuxu1976对ywye说: where can i find this book?(21:34)
ywye对xuxu1976说: You may need to put it into something like a library. But I am not sure if there is any general tool for that.(21:35)
xuxu1976对ywye说:do
you have some successful experience on COTS?(21:35)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Your friend is right, This is a problem in reuse, always similar, never the same.(21:36)
ywye对xuxu1976说: But,do
es he or she program with those API classes and methods coming with Java?(21:36)
ywye对xuxu1976说: No. I have neverdo
ne anything related with COTS. But I often use some public-domain or open-source stuff.(21:37)
xuxu1976对ywye说: NO. She is familiar with Delphi/COM+.(21:37)
ywye对xuxu1976说: You may find the book in www.amazon.com. This is a vision book, not technical one. But markets are vision thing.(21:38)
happyboyjmw对ywye说:do
you mean JAVA is a prosperous language in developing reuasble compnents?(21:38)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: Personally, I like C better. All programming languages can be used to develop good reusable components.(21:39)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: But Java enforces more disciplines.(21:40)
wangxp对ywye说: Dr. ye,do you know some new research about MODEL DRIVEN ARCHETECURE?(21:40)
ywye对xuxu1976说: My question actually meant that if she has known a component already,do
es she reuse it in design?(21:40)
ywye对wangxp说: Sorry, Ido
not know about Model Driven Architecture.(21:41)
xuxu1976对ywye说: ya.Only 1 component reused in this system.(21:41)
xuxu1976对ywye说: And She think the possibility of component reuse in later systems is higher.(21:43)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Thinking of programming in any language. When you know a reusable component (class, method, function), you would construct the new system around it.(21:43)
ywye对xuxu1976说: That is called bottom-up programming, or component composition.(21:43)
ywye对xuxu1976说: But if youdo
n't know components, you have to decompose the system and then
try to find one to match your design.(21:44)
ywye对xuxu1976说: At this phase, it oftens happens that you can't find one you need.(21:44)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Two things you cando
. Change the most close component, and put it back to the repository for the benefits of other designers.(21:44)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Or, change your design to accomodate the most close or similar component.(21:45)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Tha is right. When you are designing a second similar system, you can find a lot of reusable things from the previous one.(21:45)
netgo对ywye说: hi,yywye. Have you completed some books on OO?(21:46)
ywye对netgo说: No, I am not writing any book. I am not an OO expert.(21:46)
xuxu1976对ywye说: thx. Could you give us some advice on Software Reuse before you go?(21:47)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: There is very few books in market,I think this area must be new in china ,Am I right?(21:47)
ywye对xuxu1976说: I think every software developer should have reuse in mind.(21:48)
airy对大家说: Dr ye, I am a programmer. My job is major in application system for TELCOM.it's complex and request changed often. how about REUSE in this field(21:48)
ywye对xuxu1976说: Many benefits of reuse will pay off in the long run, such as the maitenance phase.(21:48)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: no.from 60's somebody began to research reuse.(21:49)
xuxu1976对ywye说: ya.(21:50)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 不会吧那可真让你见笑了我对这领域不太熟悉(21:50)
xuxu1976对ywye说: maintain is a boring phase.(21:50)
netgo对ywye说: Are there some userful patterns about software reuse?(21:51)
ywye对airy说: a general advice is to pack those of possible changing requirements into a unit, and those whichdo
not change often into other units for reuse.(21:52)
ywye对netgo说:do
you mean design pattern by "pattern". Design patterns themselves are reusable.(21:53)
ywye对netgo说: They are reusable design knowledge, I should say, not code.(21:53)
netgo对ywye说: yes,i think so(21:54)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: If you mean reuse as a research field, it is as old as programming, or older, some would claim.(21:54)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: If you mean COTS market, it is kind of new.(21:54)
ywye对大家说: It is really nice to talk to you guys.do
you come often to this forum?(21:55)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: will you come here again?(21:56)
xuxu1976对ywye说: ya. www.umlchina.com is a good site.(21:56)
redkaka对大家说: redbug(21:56)
ywye对大家说: Now I have a question for you all. What motivates you to answer other's questions in this forum?(21:56)
airy对ywye说: in face, wedo
not know which would change exactly. We work for the UI, work flow, policy years and years. even there are some change from development tool.(21:56)
redkaka对大家说: I am cool blood(21:56)
airy对ywye说: maybe reuse is only suite for Product mode?(21:57)
ywye对airy说: Policy is apparently the part that changes most.(21:57)
xuxu1976对ywye说: interest(21:57)
redkaka对redbug说:
(21:58)ywye对airy说: You are absolutely right. That is why software development is so hard and so challenging.(21:58)
redkaka对ywye说: cewl(21:58)
ywye对airy说: As Brooks said, there is no silver bullet. No single methodology or tool will gurantee a good system.(21:58)
ywye对airy说: It the creative power of designers that blow life into the systems. That is why some claim software design is art, not engineering.(21:59)
redkaka对ywye说: software development maybe be challenging(21:59)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: will you be here again?(21:59)
airy对ywye说: also make so many market and employee chance(21:59)
airy对ywye说: You are right!(22:00)
ywye对airy说: and earn big money
.(22:00)umlchina对大家说: 【OK，时间差不多了，谢谢叶博士，一大早爬起来，辛苦了】(22:00)
umlchina对大家说: 也谢谢大家的光临(22:00)
xuxu1976对ywye说: thanks a lot.(22:00)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: thank you very much(22:01)
ywye对happyboyjmw说: I will try if I have time. The only problem is that your prime time is not good for me.(22:01)
redkaka对umlchina说: 你做收尾的工作？(22:01)
palmkb对大家说:do
nt' leave a~~~~(22:01)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: 呵呵(22:01)
airy对ywye说: I think OO and reuse is an inspiration from our society. but it's independent. it need union(22:01)
ywye对大家说: 谢谢大家. 讨论很有意思!(22:02)
airy对ywye说: a, time up?(22:02)
redkaka对umlchina说: union 很重要(22:02)
redkaka对umlchina说: 做任何事情都一样(22:02)
airy微笑着对ywye说: 再见！前路风雨多，多珍重啊！(22:02)
ywye对airy说: Reuse exists in all fields, and is as old as human history. We all reuse words spoken by our ancestors
.(22:02)happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: I think you have a lot of experience in this area,how long have you been working on it?(22:03)
redkaka对airy说: drain away the mud and bring in fresh water(22:03)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 3-4 years(22:04)
ywye对大家说: A lot of thanks to jypan, who made this possible. A lot of thanks to all participants who made this really interesting.(22:04)
muyq对大家说: TOO LATE(22:04)
happyboyjmw对ywye说: 注意休息呀(22:04)
ywye对大家说: goodbye, guys and gals!(22:04)
ywye离开了聊天室.(22:05)
xuxu1976对umlchina说: which is the next topic?(22:05)
redkaka对redbug说: 走吧(22:05)
redkaka对redbug说: 他已经走了(22:05)
muyq对大家说: 来得太迟了(22:05)
umlchina对大家说: OK，大家有兴趣可以继续留下来(22:06)
happyboyjmw对大家说: It is really interesting here(22:06)
redkaka对redbug说: we should set long narrow flag to call back the spirit of the dead(22:06)
redkaka对redbug说: haha(22:06)
muyq对大家说: 不知道已经讨论了什么？(22:06)
airy微笑着对大家说: 乱了点，讨论方式要改改(22:06)
redkaka对muyq说: 我也不知道(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: 不知道有没有人注意我的话了，呵呵(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: so lucky man(22:07)
umlchina对大家说: 聊天记录明天出来(22:07)
muyq对redkaka说: 同病相怜，哈哈(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: but be out of place(22:07)
redkaka对muyq说: hehe cewl(22:08)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: developing reusable components好像是个很大的话题我现在不知道该从何处下手(22:08)
xuxu1976对umlchina说: thx.(22:08)
redkaka对muyq说: we are in the same boat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(22:08)
redkaka对muyq说: hehe(22:08)
redkaka对umlchina说: mail给我们吧(22:09)
muyq对redkaka说: 明天看论坛吧(22:09)
xuxu1976对大家说: 第一个系统很难重用。(22:09)
垃圾猪对happyboyjmw说: 设计模式可能对你有用(22:09)
muyq对redkaka说: UMLCHIAN很忙的，他会MAIL给你吗(22:09)
happyboyjmw对umlchina说: will I be notified if there is other guest here?(22:09)
垃圾猪对happyboyjmw说: 这聊天室太差了，老是刷(22:09)
muyq对umlchina说: 可以的话，也MAIL给我一份(22:10)
happyboyjmw对垃圾猪说: 我头一次来这里(22:10)
happyboyjmw对垃圾猪说: 我看过了sun出版的thinging in pattern(22:11)
muyq对大家说: 难道我们就不能用IRC协议聊天室吗(22:11)
垃圾猪对大家说: 走了，umlchina，明天把聊天记录贴在论坛好吧！(22:11)
垃圾猪对大家说: 可以呀，这破聊天室，谁写的，老刷(22:12)
muyq对大家说: 肯定比这个快多了，UMLCHIAN可以提个议(22:13)
muyq对大家说: 走了，大家再见(22:15)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: u should find the 个性和共性。(22:15)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 我主要研究JAVA ，所以没有大局观(22:16)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 有没有好的网站给推荐几个？(22:17)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 网址我不记得了。但carma mcclure是个大师。(22:19)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: umlchina上好像有本重用大全吧。(22:20)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 我刚上那个网站(22:21)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 搞设计是不是比编码容易一些？(22:21)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 赫赫。好的设计很难的。(22:22)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: 我认为编码难度会小些。(22:24)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 设计主要是一种思维吧，编码就跟机器一样(22:24)
eport对大家说: 现在有没有PSP的中文书？(22:24)
eport对大家说: 那里可以买到？(22:24)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 他说的是PSP(22:24)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 是什么意思(22:24)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 什么是PSP(22:25)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: china-pub(22:25)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: personal software process(22:26)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: i'm afraid that i have to go now.(22:27)
daystar对大家说: 也不知道今天的讨论说了些什么。。。(22:27)
eport对happyboyjmw说: Personal Software Process(22:27)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 个人软件过程，应该这么翻译的吧(22:27)
xuxu1976对happyboyjmw说: c u later. my mail add is xuxu1976@sina.com. u r welcome.(22:27)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 是指导程序员用的(22:27)
happyboyjmw对xuxu1976说: 好吧有问题我就会麻烦你的(22:28)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 弱xuxu1976可真是个高手啊(22:28)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 你是搞编程还是设计的(22:29)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 不过我还得看看明天的记录
(22:30)happyboyjmw对eport说: 我对设计这方面可真是外行，(22:30)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 我什么都是刚刚开始(22:30)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 实际上应该编程在先的吧？(22:31)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 我觉得设计抓不住头绪，不知道该从何下手而且他们刚才讨论还有许多新技术，都没听说过(22:32)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 再见，我要走 了 mail : mouse.wu@263.net(22:32)
happyboyjmw对eport说: 好再见，我会联系你的(22:33)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 是啊，设计这一方面本来就有很多新的概念(22:33)
l5进入聊天室.(22:33)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 我想我们应该抓住思想(22:34)
eport对happyboyjmw说: 再见
(22:34)