D
dbbdggdbbdgg
Unregistered / Unconfirmed
GUEST, unregistred user!
UMLChina第九期嘉宾john vlissides聊天实录--诚征译者(think@umlchina.com)!!
北京时间2001年9月20日（星期四）21:00-23:00。主持人：方春旭(fcx123)嘉宾：John Vlissides，《设计模式》的四位作者之一，并著有另一本畅销书“Pattern Hatching”。现为IBM研究中心研究员。研究领域：面向对象软件设计工具和技术、设计模式、应用架构、界面设计...
blakeli微笑着对大家说: Who have read the book of John Vlissides??(20:21)
lipy对blakeli说: 哪里可以买到？(20:23)
iwxg对blakeli说: How many times have you read this book?(20:24)
blakeli微笑着对大家说: 好多书店都有啊！(20:24)
blakeli微笑着对大家说: I read it littly(20:24)
iwxg对blakeli说: I'm just reading it,but I can't grasp it well.(20:26)
blakeli微笑着对大家说: o! Maybe you will get some advise from Mr.John.(20:28)
umlchina对大家说: GOF's photo at http://www.umlchina.com/Chat/vlissidesinfo.htm(20:29)
babysloth对大家说: Pattern Hatching不错，C++ View上正在连载。(20:29)
umlchina对大家说: Please set your color in BLACK when you talk to each other(20:30)
umlchina对大家说: In BLUE when asking question(20:31)
huangcy对大家说: hello, whendo
we begin
the talk?(20:40)
johnvlissides进入聊天室.(20:47)
feng98对大家说: Hi(20:47)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(20:47)
johnvlissides对大家说: hi!(20:47)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: welcome(20:47)
johnvlissides对大家说: hi everybody!(20:48)
fcx123对大家说: Hello,Prof. johnvlissides! Nice to meeet you.(20:48)
babysloth对大家说: Is everything OK now in New York?(20:48)
umlchina对大家说: 主持人：fcx123(20:48)
johnvlissides对大家说: I wouldn't say everything is okay, but(20:48)
johnvlissides对大家说: things are settlingdo
wn(20:48)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: hello,nice to see you.(20:49)
lipy对johnvlissides说: hello,Mr. John!(20:49)
johnvlissides对大家说: I presume I'm broadcasting now(20:49)
fcx123对大家说: Prof. johnvlissides, Please use red color!(20:49)
johnvlissides对大家说: how's that?(20:50)
umlchina对大家说: 提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝(20:50)
babysloth对大家说: I've written to you and Mr Stroustrup, but only got reply from him.(20:50)
umlchina对大家说: 互相说话：绝对黑色(20:50)
fcx123对大家说: ok. Which one ask first?(20:50)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: that's strange(20:51)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: what's your e-mail address?(20:51)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: babysloth@263.net(20:51)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: i haven't received anything from you(20:51)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: try sending to vlis@us.ibm.com(20:52)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Professor John lissides, can you give us what is the important differences between framework and software architecture?(20:52)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: oh, I'm sorry.(20:52)
johnvlissides对大家说: first of all, a framework is code(20:53)
lipy对johnvlissides说: can you tell me how you start your software designing?(20:53)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I often confuse them in some abstract level.(20:53)
johnvlissides对大家说: it embodies the design of a category of software(20:53)
johnvlissides对大家说: like for example, accounting systems or graphical editors(20:53)
johnvlissides对大家说: "software architecture" is an emerging discipline(20:54)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think the architecture is the begin
of software design, isn't it?(20:54)
johnvlissides对大家说: not unlike building architecture, but with many concrete differences(20:54)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: architecture is most useful for larger projects(20:55)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Can you give me these differences?(20:55)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: design applies to everything that needs to last(20:55)
johnvlissides对lipy说: I got started by writing software!(20:55)
johnvlissides对lipy说: after a while, I learned what worked and what didn't(20:56)
johnvlissides对lipy说: I just had the privilege of writingdo
wn and publishing what I'd learned(20:56)
babysloth对大家说: Well, I'm interesting in the story about how you joined Gang Of Four(or there would be Gang of Three
). Could you please tell us something?(20:56)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: most obviously, building architecture deals with buildings(20:56)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: less obviously, software is much more malleable and changes faster(20:57)
lipy对johnvlissides说: what is the name of your new book?(20:57)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Yeah,but I think the software is mostly like building.(20:57)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I can send you a draft of an article that talks about how we got together(20:58)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: send me e-mail at vlis@us.ibm.com requesting it(20:58)
johnvlissides对lipy说: I personallydo
n't have a new book out(20:58)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: in other words,software is more unstable?(20:58)
johnvlissides对lipy说: the last book I authored is Pattern Hatching(20:58)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Oh, thanks!!!(20:59)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: I think there no relations between "analysis pattern" and "design pattern", right?(20:59)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: and maybe change some part frequently? but how about other aspects?(20:59)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: yes. there are lots of physical limitations on how fast you can change a building(20:59)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: software is much easier to change---and break in the process(21:00)
paofan对大家说: Thank you very much. Mr.John. in this special time. U from USA, talking about pattern with us.(21:00)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I just begin
to learn UML in short time?can you give me important advice?(21:00)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I think there are lots of relationships between analysis and design patterns(21:00)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: they are the same relationships that exist between analysis and design themselves(21:01)
simontang_bit对大家说: design and analysis are unified process.(21:01)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: you can't divorce analysis from design. If you try, you'll fail(21:01)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: and Is design patterns used to shield these changes?(21:01)
johnvlissides对paofan说: thank you!(21:02)
jeffray对大家说: where is the john?(21:02)
johnvlissides对paofan说: it's an honor to be here(21:02)
johnvlissides对jeffray说: right here in NY(21:02)
johnvlissides对lipy说: check out Fowler's UML Distilled(21:03)
paofan对大家说: Is pattern about phlisophy? not only model(21:03)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: jeffray, please be polite just as a Chinese!!!(21:03)
johnvlissides对lipy说: if you need to dig deeper, get Rumbaughs Reference Manual(21:03)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: Hmmmm,nice to meet you john ,i am one of your readers.(21:04)
johnvlissides对paofan说: there's a philosphical aspect to patterns, especially as Alexander's(21:04)
lipy对johnvlissides说: thank you very much!(21:04)
johnvlissides对jeffray说: a pleasure to meet you too, jeffray(21:04)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: thanks! I mean analysis focus design module of realist. but desin are focus how to deal with it.(21:04)
lovelybug28对大家说: as a new to design patterns,can you give me some useful advice?(21:05)
johnvlissides对founder_chen说: pleased to meet you, founder(21:05)
paofan对大家说: yeah, from architechure(21:06)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: a good new book is Design Patterns Explained, by Shalloway(21:06)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: great for begin
ners(21:06)
johnvlissides对paofan说: Jim Coplien has written extensively on the "zen" of patterns(21:06)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: thank you ,Professor John lissides(21:07)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: Ok,john,I wanna ask you about the rules to use parterns..(21:07)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Design Patterns Explained? Oh, it's being translated into Chinese, said to be very good.(21:07)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: beyond that, my Pattern Hatching book demonstrates how (not) to use design patterns(21:07)
paofan对大家说: some thing is coming to real. As Alexander's forecast.(21:07)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: above all, though, you have to apply patterns to learn them(21:07)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: you can't just read about them(21:07)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: I mean is there any philosophy choose a partern.(21:07)
qingzuozhou对大家说: Hi, Mr. Johnvlissides, I have a question.(21:08)
johnvlissides对jeffray说: Ido
n't have a hard set of rules to give you, just advice: you have to apply patterns to learn them(21:08)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: yes sir(21:09)
qingzuozhou对大家说: In your 23 design patterns, they are mainly used to design concret small components.(21:09)
qingzuozhou对大家说: How can I use these patterns to construct large system? Are there any design patterns on large system based these small patterns?(21:09)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: er?(21:09)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well, Mr Vlissides, howdo
you think of MVC? Is it a combination of several patterns, a model or a large pattern?(21:09)
lipy对johnvlissides说: Can you tell me how to use "collection manager"?(21:09)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: not necessarily small components, but in general yes, theydo
n't address large-scale architectural concerns(21:09)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: thank you,John! i'm very happy you can reply. i'm reading your bood design patterns.(21:10)
missile对大家说: Nice to meet you !I like Design patterns!Thank you !(21:10)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Professor John lissides,I think the design patterns is the component of application framework, so when you implment a framework you need to concrete some design patterns.(21:10)
johnvlissides对lipy说: send me e-mail about it: vlis@us.ibm.com(21:10)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: what's the relationship between parterns and programming languages?(21:10)
johnvlissides对missile说: glad I could help!(21:11)
jackaroo_yi对大家说: How to write summary design?(21:11)
paofan对大家说: partern-life program-language(21:11)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: itdo
es indeed embody several of our patterns---plus synergies between them, plus some extra stuff(21:11)
paofan对大家说: Is it right? Mr. john.(21:12)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: but when i abstract the framework of software ,i often is in too detail ,Can you give some advices about it?(21:12)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: or-- if i use c++ ,then
I should choose xxx partern,if i use java ,then
i'd better choose some othe parterns,is that true?(21:12)
missile对大家说: I used pattern in a huge project.if no patterns ,Ido
nt know how to realise.(21:12)
qingzuozhou对大家说: there is no any pattern about building an application based on Database in 23 patterns, why?(21:12)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: yes, you can think of it as "instantiating" a pattern---but...(21:12)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: So is MVC also a pattern?(21:12)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: usually the pattern is just a starting point from which to evolve the design to your own needs(21:13)
jackaroo_yi对johnvlissides说: Hello johnvlissides ,how to write(21:13)
johnvlissides对paofan说: not sure I understand what you mean(21:14)
paofan对大家说: sorry, umlchina(21:14)
lipy对johnvlissides说: could you provide me some example of UML designing,Mr. John?(21:14)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: because none of us had enough experience in database applications(21:14)
jackaroo_yi对johnvlissides说: Hello johnvlissides ,how to write detail deisgn with UML .(21:15)
missile对fcx123说: Are you going to write a paterns book about java?(21:15)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: what sort of detail?(21:15)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: there are no patterns about building an application based on Database in 23 patterns, why?(21:15)
paofan对johnvlissides说: pattern give code life. It is new view about program.(21:15)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: the pattern is a starting point ? what is the real meaning? excuse me.(21:15)
johnvlissides对missile说: we've been working on a 2nd edition of Design Patterns for several years(21:15)
johnvlissides对missile说: and most of the code examples are Java(21:16)
paofan对johnvlissides说: Alexander thanks that all building have life too.(21:16)
johnvlissides对missile说: (no idea when 2ed will be out, but it won't be soon)(21:16)
ansen_chen对大家说: When I use paterns,how can i extend it?(21:16)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: in Pattern Hatching I design a file system API using patterns(21:17)
ansen_chen对大家说: please give me some advices(21:17)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: now some people regard pattern as bible.they think pattern can solve everything. howdo
you think of pattern and what is significance for pattern appears?(21:17)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: sometimes, I think the problem too detail ,and i cann't abstract the proper struct from model. and make the framework too detail and reduced its reusablity.(21:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: in more than one case, a pattern got applied in an unorthodox way(21:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: and evolved from there(21:17)
missile对johnvlissides说: I would like to waiting for it ,like waitting for my girl friend!(21:17)
lipy对johnvlissides说: can you talk about the object-oriented database about UML ?(21:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: patterns are meant to be tailored to the problem at hand(21:18)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: that's why they're not code, but prose(21:18)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: they educate you, empower you to solve the problem with your mind turned on(21:18)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: We can find some generic implements of SINGLETON, which we can reuse easily. But how about other patterns? It seems that we can find many.(21:18)
johnvlissides对missile说: wow, now that's a compliment!(21:18)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: sorry, we cannot find many.(21:19)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I have not read your <pattern hatching >,but i read <design patterns..>, What is the main topic of <pattern hatching>?(21:19)
missile对johnvlissides说: Will you write some about Achetechur?(21:19)
johnvlissides对ansen_chen说: are you asking how to apply a pattern, or how to amend its description?(21:19)
babysloth对huangcy说: pattern hatching: design patterns applied(21:20)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: the JDK is full of patterns, particularly Composite, Strategy, Template Method, Prototype, Observer, Decorator, Facade, Abstract Factory....(21:20)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: I want to know there are any patterns about database applications in 2ed of <<Design pattern>>.(21:21)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: Pattern Hatching is part commentary, part tutorial on how to apply patterns, and(21:21)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Yes, we can see the patterns, but we cannot reuse it easily just in form of a class, can we?(21:21)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: but the framework is the codes , I want to make my framework more abstract, and i think it will make it more good.(21:22)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: part a behind-the-scenes look at how the four of us develop patterns(21:22)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/flex-sign-in/ref=cm_rate_rev/104-5101538-2496757#rated-review(21:22)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: nope(21:22)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: The Pattern Almanac has a good set of references to such patterns(21:22)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: people have tried---me, even(21:23)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: code generation generally isn't worth it(21:23)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: how can I use patterns to upgrade old applications? Give some advices please(21:23)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: Alexandrescu's templates work better (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201704315/qid%3D982783857/104-5101538-2496757)(21:23)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think it is a good book for me, I am eager to have a such book.(21:24)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: the old system didn't designed with OO design(21:24)
babysloth对johnvlissides说:do
you mean Modern C++ Design?(21:24)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: framework design is a whole area itself(21:24)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: the best way todo
it is to build several examples of the applications your framework is to target *before* you write the framework(21:24)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: then
you take a step back and come up with an abstraction that caters to all the applications, and then
some(21:25)
ansen_chen对大家说: When I use some patterns,how can i extend it and made it detail?Please give me some advices.(21:25)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: correct(21:25)
ansen_chen对大家说: When I use some patterns,how can i extend it and made it detail?Please give me some advices.(21:25)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Modern C++ Design is not easy to understand.(21:25)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: patterns are useful as targets for refactorings(21:25)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: finer-grain refactorings are even more fundamentally useful(21:26)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: see Fowler's Refactoring book(21:26)
lipy对johnvlissides说: we are changing c module to C++ module ,can you give me some advice?(21:26)
ansen_chen对johnvlissides说: When I use some patterns,how can i extend it and made it detail?Please give me some advices.(21:26)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Abstact the framework from existed system? oh, I see some. thank you very much.(21:26)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: agreed---the template implementations are very hard to understand(21:26)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: but the templates themselves are pretty easy to use(21:26)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Whydo
you choose java in DP 2/e? Have you considered combine Generic Programming and Patterns?(21:27)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I like template very much.(21:27)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: in the markets, are there any tools integrating the patterns into ?(21:27)
johnvlissides对ansen_chen说: my Pattern Hatching book and Shalloway's Design Patterns Explained have many good examples of applying patterns(21:27)
paofan对johnvlissides说: how about pattern's future?(21:28)
johnvlissides对lipy说: why are you changing it?(21:28)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: What about your research recently?(21:28)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: we use mostly Java because it illustrates what we want to show best, and it's also popular(21:28)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,after pattern,do you think what would replace it?(21:29)
lipy对johnvlissides说: can you tell me some other good tool using UML except rose?(21:29)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Wedo
n't know how to create pattern. Can you tell about the exprience that you create those design pattern?(21:29)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I'm a big fan of generic programming, by the way(21:29)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I've worked a bit with Krzysztof Czarnecki(21:29)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: sorry;
Ido
n't understand your question(21:30)
johnvlissides对paofan说: they certainly have on(21:30)
xf_yes对大家说: John, whendo
ing OO design, sometimes i feel it's difficult to control granularity of objects,do
you have any suggestion in this?(21:30)
lipy对johnvlissides说: because our product is changing to the model of Client -Server(21:30)
xf_yes对大家说: i.e. When can we say: ok, let's make this abstraction an object?(21:30)
johnvlissides对paofan说: seriously, the set of patterns will expand and will be refined(21:31)
johnvlissides对paofan说: patterns will be categorized better(21:31)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Oh, I see. I'm trying to learn GP now, so interesting!(21:31)
johnvlissides对paofan说: and more people will use them(21:31)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: a very good point(21:31)
xf_yes对大家说: thanks John(21:32)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: Any design tools implements your patterns as templates?(21:32)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: there's a trade-off between granularity/flexibility/cost(21:32)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think GP use the template to abstract the modules, Is it right?(21:32)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Is there a pattern language at present? I mean, a source language to describe the pattern?(21:32)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: the finer grain, the more flexibility, but generally the higher the complexity and costs, especially run-time and maintenance costs(21:32)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well,do
you think GP is a part of OO(as in OOSC), or a independent paradigm?(21:32)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: You are one of the famous master of "design pattern", can you introduce some of your friends in the fields? Hope you to give us their homepage or e-mail box.(21:33)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Can we treat the pattern in a formal way?(21:33)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: And will patterns be combined with GP?(21:33)
xf_yes对johnvlissides说: make sense(21:33)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: you should make it an object if it becomes clear that it can change, and those changes should ripple through the system(21:33)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: it should also be a good abstraction, a good metaphor(21:34)
beartoy对johnvlissides说: I developed a server, but it always throw out of memory exception, it seems stack is not enough, because I used a lot of recursions. Is there any method to solve it? I u(21:34)
paofan对johnvlissides说: yeah, more program will infect future. infect every one.(21:34)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Prof. Can you tell me what is the main different between analysis pattern and design pattern?(21:35)
xf_yes对johnvlissides说: by 'ripple' you mean the object's state change will have influence on other part of the system?(21:35)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: check out IBM's Design Patterns page http://www.research.ibm.com/designpatterns/(21:35)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: yes: one change leads to another, which leads to another, ...(21:36)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Thanks!(21:36)
lipy对johnvlissides说: Mr. John are you living in China now?(21:36)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Thanks very much for giving me the permission to translate your column Pattern Hatching into Chinese. Should I send you a electronic version of the second article to you?(21:36)
ansen_chen对babysloth说: hi,I am begin
ner.GP is generic patter,is right?(21:36)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: with my experiences, useing pattern often make system more complicate and more codes, how avoid that?(21:36)
johnvlissides对beartoy说: replace (some) recursion with iteration. also it might help to increase the VM's heap size(21:37)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: then
you can make it available online?(21:37)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I'm sure patterns of GP will emerge (that's what I was talking to Krzysztof about)(21:37)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: lots of people have tried to formalize patterns, most notable Amnon Eden (try a Google search)(21:38)
paofan对johnvlissides说: how about culture. IBM join in Linux and Java group, Is it hint the big blue will be more open.(21:38)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: So is "traits" a pattern of GP?(21:38)
johnvlissides对lipy说: nope, I'm in NY (but I'd certainly like to visit China)(21:39)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Can you tell me what is the typical processes when we use software architecture and design pattern and analysis pattern to analysis and design a software system?(21:39)
johnvlissides对lipy说: my father visited in 1972, right after Nixon!(21:39)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: use patterns only when their benefits outweigh their costs(21:39)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: only you can assess that trade-off(21:39)
johnvlissides对ansen_chen说: correct(21:40)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Prof. Design Pattern is temppate of OOD solution, "design pattern","analysis pattern" are very hot nowdays. Can you introduce some other pattern in computer world?(21:40)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: pleasedo
send it(21:40)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Thank you.(21:41)
paofan对johnvlissides说: Is Micrsoft and IBM represent two ways.(21:41)
johnvlissides对paofan说: IBM is big into open source(21:41)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I am in a large company named neusoftcorporation,I like to meet you when you come to china.(21:41)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Sorry, not "temppate" but "template"(21:41)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: yes. I'd call it an idiom, in Jim Coplien's sense(21:41)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: OK. I have to leave now, and I'll see the discussion later.(21:41)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: wow, that's a big question(21:42)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I really appreicate your help.(21:42)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: I like the way Extreme Programming uses patterns(21:42)
supperapplication对大家说: : Can you tell me what is the typical processes when we use software architecture and design pattern and analysis pattern to analysis and design a software system?(21:42)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I want to write letter to you later,can you be tired of me?(21:42)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: Should we think in pattern whiling designing ?(21:42)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: I'll have to defer to the books on that subject(21:42)
frankx对大家说: hi,all(21:43)
johnvlissides对paofan说: not sure what you mean by "represent two ways"(21:43)
fcx123对大家说: Please slowly!(21:43)
huangcy对johnvlissides说:, It look some big, I just want some main and critical processes.(21:43)
johnvlissides对lipy说: love to!(21:43)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: Sorry.(21:43)
j2me对johnvlissides说: dear john,you said "use patterns only when their benefits outweigh their costs" ,but in which way we can know if it brings more benifit or cost to us?(21:44)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: Should we think in pattern whiling designing ?(21:44)
fcx123对大家说: Please ask question one by one!(21:44)
paofan对johnvlissides说: monopolize way and open way(21:44)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Which of your books talk about this subject?(21:44)
johnvlissides对supperapplication说: a big question(21:44)
johnvlissides对supperapplication说: I like the way Extreme Programming applies patterns(21:44)
johnvlissides对supperapplication说: have to defer to those books...(21:44)
johnvlissides对j2me说: good question(21:45)
johnvlissides对j2me说: I think the key is small iterations of development(21:45)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: thank you. I will wait for your book.(21:45)
johnvlissides对j2me说: you introduce patterns when you find you need the flexibility, not in anticipation of supposed needs(21:46)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,howdo
you think of XP?(21:46)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Can you advise some books about this topic? thank you.(21:46)
johnvlissides对j2me说: if you iterate your builds quickly enough, you'll get the feel for the system quicker and change the design accordingly faster(21:46)
johnvlissides对paofan说: oh, I see(21:47)
johnvlissides对paofan说: well, they're both business out to make money(21:47)
cancan对johnvlissides说: Can you tell me how to use design patterns in ERP System?(21:47)
johnvlissides对paofan说: one has tighter control on the consumer market than the other(21:47)
johnvlissides对paofan说: and one has tighter control on the large-scale commerce market(21:47)
paofan对johnvlissides说: but they can control "hack"(21:47)
sealw对johnvlissides说: I think the core of XP is to coding as soon as possible, then
make "patches". What's your oppinion?(21:48)
paofan对johnvlissides说: so IBM will be always "big". but another will die in the future.(21:48)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: if you're into process, check out the Extreme Programming books and also Larman's Applying UML and Patterns book (a new edition is out)(21:48)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: some one think the software architecture as architecture pattern, What's your view about it?(21:49)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I think XP is great, particularly for small-to-midsize projects will ill-defined requirements(21:49)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: thank you, I will .(21:49)
johnvlissides对cancan说: I'm afraid not---not anything specific to ERP systems, anyway(21:50)
johnvlissides对paofan说: "control 'hack'"?(21:50)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Most projects have ill-defined requirement.(21:50)
johnvlissides对sealw说: no, I think the core of XP are the five principles
21:51)
johnvlissides对sealw说: rapid feedback, assume simplicity, incremental change, embracing change, and quality work(21:51)
paofan对johnvlissides说: yeah,I feel u aredo
ing missionary work.(21:51)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: architectural patterns are part of the basis for software architecture(21:52)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: I always think nothing will come to a precise condition until they are formalized. Howdo
you think about pattern?(21:52)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: they themselves aren't software architecture(21:52)
paofan对johnvlissides说: in pattern way, very open.(21:52)
j2me对johnvlissides说: I think that the most of the benifits that patertns bring to us is appeared during the rebuilding process,right?(21:52)
fcx123对大家说: Slowly,please!(21:52)
johnvlissides对sealw说: actually not;
the bigger the project, the better the requirements usually are(21:52)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes, you are right. Many programmers in China are misled by RUP...(21:53)
johnvlissides对sealw说: the flight control software for the space shuttle, for example, had very specific requirements(21:53)
pnren对大家说: somepeople say the win2000 is designed specially for going into net,is that true ?(21:54)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I read some book about software architecture , It just give me some Architecture styles, I think they just is architecture pattern. but as you say, What the software arch(21:54)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: I tend to agree. But you can't formalize until you have enough concrete examples from which to abstract(21:54)
paofan对johnvlissides说: so some innocence people will become believer from "hack".(21:55)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: RUP is good for what it's good for---i.e., bigger projects with a good handle on the requirements(21:55)
johnvlissides对j2me说: you mean "refactoring process"? "Rebuilding" has a different connotation around here right about now...(21:55)
johnvlissides对pnren说: Ido
n't know how valid or relevant that is(21:56)
johnvlissides对pnren说: it's an operating system, after all(21:56)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. In mature industry, requests usually are more specific. But in China, most are amature.(21:56)
johnvlissides对pnren说: is unix any less Net-worthy?(21:56)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Howdo
you think of the Zed notation?(21:56)
sealw对johnvlissides说: You can seldom meet Field Experts in China. Userdo
n't know what they want.(21:57)
pnren对johnvlissides说: no(21:57)
paofan对johnvlissides说: chinese programers can't co-work in a team.(21:58)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: I've never used Z myself, but I've seen it used.(21:58)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: It appears to be one of the most popular logic notations out there.(21:58)
johnvlissides对sealw说: they'll figure out, with time(21:58)
paofan对johnvlissides说: pattern way will change them.(21:58)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: You say architecture patterns arenot software architecture, then
What is software architecture? I just think it is the component and connection ,and they setup the system(21:59)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I will go now,I'm glad to meet you tonight.Best regards.(21:59)
johnvlissides对paofan说: why can't chinese programmers cooperate?(21:59)
pnren对johnvlissides说: I am studying Linux on myself now ,I think it is very complex,isn't it ?(21:59)
johnvlissides对pnren说: hey, it's an operating system!(22:00)
johnvlissides对pnren说: pleasure's mine(22:00)
socceracer对大家说: Would you please tell me in which field you find Zed notation is used?(22:00)
johnvlissides对pnren说: oops! that was meant for someone else
(22:00)
johnvlissides对lipy说: pleasures mine!(22:00)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. Time will make us grow up.(22:00)
paofan对johnvlissides说: they think "hack" is clever. they destroy something in foolish way.(22:00)
paofan对johnvlissides说: not to build something.(22:01)
pnren对johnvlissides说: yes,my teacher has tole us it is a very popular OS,so i want to study it(22:01)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: I've seen it used to prove typechecking properties and in security applications, particularly cryptography(22:01)
paofan对johnvlissides说: they hit big, because they are small.(22:01)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I'm back. When will Pattern Hatching 2/e come out? I'm looking forward to it.(22:02)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Question once more: Can you tell about the differnce of "analysis pattern" and "design pattern"?(22:02)
johnvlissides对sealw说: I was referring to all of us, not just China!(22:02)
johnvlissides对sealw说: software technology is still in its infancy(22:02)
sealw对johnvlissides说: for example?(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: analysis patterns capture common solutions to recurringdo
main modeling problems(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: design patterns capture common solutions to recurring program design problems(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I highly recommend studying Linux(22:03)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: great!(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: haven't thought much about a follow-on to Pattern Hatching(22:04)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I've thought more about publishing a collection of "compound patterns"(22:04)
paofan对johnvlissides说: Are there some links between patter and linux? ;-)(22:04)
sealw对johnvlissides说: So what shall we study in Linux? And what will we learn?(22:04)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I wrote a lot about them in my column in C++ Report(22:04)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: So what's "compound ptterns" like? could you please say more about the new book?(22:05)
johnvlissides对sealw说: Look how much time it took for the traditional engineering disciplines to develop (100s or 1000s of years)(22:06)
johnvlissides对sealw说: we've been writing software for, what, 50 years?(22:06)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: How about adding the articles after 1998 of the column to PH 2/e?(22:06)
sealw对johnvlissides说: It's said the code quality of Linux is not as good as that of FreeBSD.(22:06)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: re: compound patterns, check out the corresponding articles at http://www.research.ibm.com/designpatterns/publications.htm#Articles(22:07)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: it's not a project yet, btw;
just an idea(22:07)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. It's the benifits of Open Source software, not only Linux.(22:07)
johnvlissides对paofan说: Ido
n't know enough about Linux internals to point out any patterns(22:08)
johnvlissides对paofan说: but I'm sure they're there(22:08)
johnvlissides对sealw说: it's always a good idea to study exemplary software(22:09)
johnvlissides对sealw说: it's the fastest way to learn how to write exemplary software yourself(22:09)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: you think like a book author!(22:09)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Wedo
n't know how to create pattern. Can you tell about the exprience that you create those design pattern?(22:09)
j2me对johnvlissides说: we can learn much experience from other engineering fields to improve our software enginerring(22:10)
johnvlissides对sealw说: Ido
n't know their relative quality(22:10)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. I was stunned when I saw you gave so many example system in your book.(22:10)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: So Open Source is great.(22:10)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: sorry,John,personal question:did you stay in NY on 09/11? and were you near to the WTC on that day?(22:10)
fcx123对大家说: one by one,please!(22:10)
johnvlissides对j2me说: agreed. I'm an electrical engineer by training, with some work experience in civil engineering(22:10)
paofan对大家说: A . W E B S I T E . D E V O T E D . T O .. R E B U I L D I N G . T H E . E A R T H http://www.patternlanguage.com/(22:11)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Is analysis pattern concern ofdo
main analysis?(22:11)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Example is not another way of study. It's the only way.(22:11)
freespark对大家说: sorry,someone call me.bye(22:11)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: yes, I was in the parking lot of my office when I heard the news(22:12)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Oh? Um, I'm just a 19-yeah-old student.(22:12)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: (we're about 30 miles from ground zero)(22:12)
johnvlissides对paofan说: thanks for the link!(22:12)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: sorry, 19-year-old.(22:13)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: Certainly!(22:13)
d_jt对大家说: the difference between analysis pattern and design pattern?(22:13)
freeman99对johnvlissides说: Is Rational Rose the best tool for modeling the software's architecture(22:13)
paofan对johnvlissides说: no at all(22:13)
johnvlissides对freespark说: okay, see ya(22:13)
johnvlissides对sealw说: or at least a very good way ;-)(22:13)
windy.j对大家说: since the book 《design pattern(22:14)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I wouldn't say "just" a 19-year-old student(22:14)
j2me对fcx123说: i think patterns are not created,they are accumulation of the former experience of software developement.(22:14)
fcx123对大家说: Can you give us a few best "design pattern"(URL) resouces?(22:14)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: Keep up the good work that I know you'redo
ing!(22:14)
paofan对johnvlissides说: "The Nature of Order offers a golden thread that connects the innermost center of who we are as humans with the physical environment."(22:15)
paofan对johnvlissides说: This is chinese way.(22:15)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: analysis patterns capture common solutions to recurring problems indo
main modeling(22:15)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: design patterns capture common solutions to recurring problems in program design(22:15)
johnvlissides对j2me说: precisely(22:15)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: the difference between analysis pattern and design pattern?please(22:15)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: check out the Patterns Home Page...(22:16)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: http://hillside.net/patterns/(22:16)
goldarcher对umlchina说: Could you keepdo
wn the track record of this chat?(22:16)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: but if it is true, the analysis pattern can just be reused in samedo
main. then
the analysis is more connected todo
main framework, isn't it?(22:16)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Thank You very much!(22:16)
johnvlissides对paofan说: yes. Alexander was very much inspired by Chinese culture(22:16)
freeman99对johnvlissides说:do
es your book covers J2ee design pattern?(22:17)
paofan对johnvlissides说: thanks, but wedo
n't know, chinese guy.(22:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: I'm not sure what a "domain framework" is(22:17)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well, there's so much course to take!(22:17)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: it's our fortunate you are not attacked.
(22:17)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i am familiar with design pattern by your book,can you introduce some analysis pattern books?(22:17)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: you're welcome!(22:17)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Again,Wedo
n't know how to create pattern. Can you tell about the exprience that you create those design pattern?(22:18)
johnvlissides对freeman99说: Nope. But there's a new book of patterns for J2EE...(22:18)
j2me对johnvlissides说: maybe we can said XX patterns capture common solutions to recurring problems in XX field(22:18)
johnvlissides对freeman99说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130648841/qid%3D997452753/104-5101538-2496757(22:18)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I'm very thankful indeed... but many others weren't so blessed(22:19)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: since the book(DP) published,there have been more and more patterns now , could you give us some advice to those patterns learning?(22:19)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: the most popular book is Fowler's Analysis Patterns(22:19)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: In my idea, thedo
main framework is just vertical framework and is reused for the samedo
main' system.(22:20)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: oops, meant that for someone else
...(22:20)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: the most popular book is Fowler's Analysis Patterns(22:20)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201895420/qid=1000995590/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/104-5101538-2496757(22:20)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Howdo
you think differences between applying patterns in a more formalized software engineering method (for example: cleanroom) and a less formalized one(XP...)?(22:20)
johnvlissides对j2me说: that's not wrong!(22:20)
freeman99对johnvlissides说: oh.Can the patterns mentioned in your book be well implemented into J2ee Projects?(22:20)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: the best way to learn patterns is to apply them---as needed, not preemptively(22:21)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: finding patterns is another matter(22:21)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: a help there is The Pattern Almanac(22:22)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201615673/qid%3D960385247/104-5101538-2496757(22:22)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: okay...(22:22)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i have a problem in using stl.complex<int> a ;i declare.but i want this kind of operation a+=complex.stl can'tdo
it?how ?(22:22)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,what languagedo
you mostly use? C++,java,or others?(22:22)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: the bigger the project, the more formality you need(22:22)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: bigger projects tend to have better-known requirements, too(22:23)
johnvlissides对freeman99说: surely;
see http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130648841/qid%3D997452753/104-5101538-2496757(22:23)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i use state pattern+ singleton pattern.but not fit very well(22:23)
pega对大家说: bye all(22:23)
pega对大家说: exit now(22:24)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: Thanks a lot!(22:24)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Can you tell about User Interface Design Pattern?(22:24)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: I'm afraid I'm not an STL expert. Ido
n't use C++ anymore, (slightly) sorry to say(22:24)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: so , my problem is How can analysis pattern make itself reuse?(22:24)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: Java, by far---although I'm notdo
ing heavy-duty programming these days(22:24)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I'm getting old, I guess(22:24)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: then
howdo
you solve this problem in dp?(22:25)
freeman99对johnvlissides说: How can I design distributed applications? Little book has covered that topic.(22:25)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Can you give us your home page address?(22:25)
johnvlissides对pega说: bye, pega(22:25)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: welcome!(22:25)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: very interesting area. Jenifer Tidwell at MIT has beendo
ing a lot of that work(22:26)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: look for her on Google(22:26)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well, everyone is getting old.(22:26)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: it ifdo
n't fit, then
do
n't use it!(22:26)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Great!(22:26)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: yeah, more framework and design pattern is about UI design.(22:27)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: like any other patterns, analysis patterns won't guarantee reuse. Analysis patterns in particular won't guarantee code reuse(22:27)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: but they may save you having to reinvent ado
main model or two(22:27)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: how old are you,John. but you have powerful thought in programing.(22:27)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: what's the latest evolve in dp?(22:28)
johnvlissides对大家说: all: My home page is at http://www.research.ibm.com/people/v/vlis/(22:28)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: excuse me,do you also know much about analysis patterns?(22:28)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think analysis pattern just for analysis reuse, I think it came fromdo
main analysis, Isn't it?(22:28)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I just turned 40 on 2 August!(22:28)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Can you tell about the expriences that you create those design pattern?(22:29)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: how can we tell idioms from patterns?(22:29)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: well, people are coming up with new patterns and pattern languages all the time(22:29)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Thank you, John.(22:29)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: PLoP 2001 just took place (9/11 was the first day :-((22:29)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: idioms are simple patterns that are specific to a programming language(22:30)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: i think so too, analysis pattern accelerate thedo
main modeling.(22:30)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: they teach you how to use a particular language like an expert;
they help make you "fluent"(22:30)
paofan对大家说: Had u meet with Chirstopher Alexander.(22:30)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i think the core part of dp is composition and virtual inherit,do you agree?(22:30)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: welcome!(22:30)
johnvlissides对paofan说: I met Alexander at OOPSLA '96(22:31)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: no, I'm afraid Ido
n't agree(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: I guess it depends on what you mean by "core part"(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: virtual inheritance is too C++-specific(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: composition is an important part, as is delegation(22:32)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: I have just see your photo. The baby must be your son;
he is very lovely.(22:32)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i mean the tech part that pattern use(22:32)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: again,I think analysis pattern just for analysis reuse, I think it came fromdo
main analysis, Isn't it?(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: but all these things are about implementation(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: patterns are equally about describing problems(22:33)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: the biggest problem people face is theydo
n't know what problems have been solved before(22:33)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: thank you! He's nearly 8 years old now.(22:33)
paofan对johnvlissides说: a long time ago.(22:34)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: yes, that's right(22:34)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: that means pattern relate to question only?(22:34)
niwalker对大家说: hi, everyone(22:34)
johnvlissides对paofan说: yes. It was a privilege to meet him.(22:35)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: hi!(22:35)
paofan对johnvlissides说: i am very excite today. the internet make my dream realize. meet u, Mr Jone.(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: no, theydo
n't relate just to questions(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: patterns have several benefits22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: they exposit proven solutions to recurring problems(22:36)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: what else
then
?(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: their names form a vocabulary(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: they provide targets for refactoring(22:36)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Nice to talk with you, but i must go, thank you for that you can spend your critical time on talking with us.(22:37)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: and they can validate approaches you're unsure of(22:37)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: oops! all that was meant for someone else
. Sorry!(22:37)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: patterns have several benefits22:38)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: they exposit proven solutions to recurring problems(22:38)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: please(22:38)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: their names form a vocabulary for discussion(22:38)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: they provide targets for refactoring(22:38)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: and they can validate approaches you're unsure of(22:38)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: my pleasure!(22:38)
niwalker对大家说: i like DPB, John, did u write new version of this book?(22:39)
johnvlissides对paofan说: A pleasure meeting you, paofan. Isn't technology (mostly) wonderful?(22:39)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: hmm, not sure which book you mean.(22:40)
paofan对johnvlissides说: yeah! and tomorrow, I will meet SUN's Scott McNealy in Shanghai city.(22:40)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: please explain refactoring(22:40)
johnvlissides对paofan说: whoa!(22:40)
niwalker对大家说: i mean Desing Patterns(22:40)
johnvlissides对paofan说: refactoring is the art of changing code incrementally to make it better without changing its function(22:41)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: we've been working on a 2nd edition for years. No estimated time of arrival, I'm afraid.(22:41)
paofan对johnvlissides说: re-build a java centre in china.(22:41)
niwalker对大家说: i c, thanks(22:42)
johnvlissides对paofan说: why is it being rebuilt? What happened to the original?(22:42)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: interface?alike?(22:43)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: oops, I responded to the wrong person.(22:44)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Talk something private? as you son Matthaw, and erich gamma...(22:44)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: refactoring is the art of changing code incrementally to make it better without changing its function(22:44)
paofan对johnvlissides说: fail for lots of reason. The most important, there are no enough java human resource in shanghai.(22:45)
johnvlissides对umlchina说:do
you want me to broadcast something about my son and Erich?(22:45)
niwalker对大家说: i have chinese edit Design Patterns, can u tell me where can i get English ?(22:45)
johnvlissides对paofan说: ...and the rest of the world, for that matter!(22:45)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: up to you. we are your fans(22:45)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i know,thank you(22:45)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: Try http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201633612/104-5101538-2496757(22:46)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: and have interest...(22:46)
paofan对johnvlissides说: haha(22:46)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: Can you explain the refactoring more detaily?(22:46)
johnvlissides对大家说: umlchina suggests I talk about Erich Gamma---nice things, of course(22:46)
niwalker对johnvlissides说: ok, i'll try, thx John(22:47)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: refactoring is the art of changing code incrementally to make it better without changing its function(22:47)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: go on please(22:47)
johnvlissides对大家说: Erich is from Switzerland, but he looks Italian.(22:48)
johnvlissides对大家说: There's a photo of us at http://www.research.ibm.com/designpatterns/pubs/ddj-eip-award.htm(22:49)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: I must go now. Bye, John. Best wishes for you and your family!(22:50)
johnvlissides对大家说: (we're a bit younger then
)(22:50)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: can you give us some advice indo
main of software?(22:50)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: thanks, socceracer. nice talking to you!(22:50)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Professor,would you please tell about the direction of OBJECT-ORIENTED.(22:51)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: Fowler's book on the subject catalogs a fewdo
zen refactorings you can apply to your code immediately to improve its structure and readability(22:51)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: which one is you in the photo?(22:52)
johnvlissides对大家说: see the caption (I'm 3rd from left)(22:52)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: see the caption (I'm 3rd from left)(22:53)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: what kind of advice?(22:53)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: (your question is very general)(22:53)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: here's some general advice22:53)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: fear complexity(22:54)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: success experience about you(22:54)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: Can you say something about the interface?(22:54)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: seek good abstractions, but only where you're sure they'll help(22:54)
paofan对johnvlissides说: James Gosling is also a pattern chiliast?(22:55)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: good mustache you have.(22:55)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: avoid premature optimization;
optimize algorithms first, then
program structure, then
statements-level(22:55)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: optimization must be driven by objective means (e.g., profiling at the statement level)(22:56)
j2me对johnvlissides说: i must go now, thank you ,bye(22:56)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: read as much code as you can(22:56)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: Did you four see the later hot selling when you wrote the book?(22:56)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: how much code you write isn't as important as how much code you throw away(22:56)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: (I can go on all day!)(22:56)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: my pleasure, j2me!(22:57)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: thanks(22:57)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,you r the fourth from left!!!(22:57)
johnvlissides对j2me说: my pleasure, j2me!(22:57)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: oops! that last message was meant for someone else
(22:57)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Professor, Still so many people! Is it your lunch time or stay ten minutes more?(22:57)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: oops! you're right!(22:57)
johnvlissides对大家说: lovelybug28 points out that I'm fourth from the left in the photo(22:58)
johnvlissides对大家说: silly me!(22:58)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说:(22:58)
johnvlissides对大家说: (thanks, lovelybug28)(22:58)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: you have a wonderful smile,(22:59)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I'm happy to stay on for another 10 minutes or so(22:59)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: this is great fun!(22:59)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: much younger than the 3rd one(22:59)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: the most handsome one in the photo(22:59)
fcx123对大家说: last one minutes! you can ask only one question!(23:00)
johnvlissides对大家说: Maybe it was a Freudian slip---just me wanting to be Erich! (23:00)
johnvlissides对umlchina说: c'mon now!(23:00)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: thanks! you guys are too much!(23:00)
paofan对johnvlissides说: thanks! Mr. jhon, welcom to china.(23:01)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: An excellent lesson from you! Thanks!!!(23:01)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Thank you very much! We all hope to read your new book soon!(23:02)
johnvlissides对paofan说: thank you, paofan.(23:02)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: when'll you come to china?(23:02)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: me too! ;-)(23:02)
paofan对johnvlissides说: U a great.(23:02)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: Professor, Can you say some things about interface, (my last question)(23:02)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Looking forward to your new book(23:02)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: Alas, no plans anytime soon. I'll be happy to make it to OOPSLA in Tampa, Florida, next month.(23:02)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: new book should have some good example(23:03)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: Interfaces are critical to system design, but they can slow youdo
wn if they're frozen too early.(23:03)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i hate the maze(23:03)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: In fact, interface evolution is an important area of research. In case you're interested. ;-)(23:03)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: nice to chat with you. thank you, John.(23:04)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: Agreed. The maze wasn't my idea.(23:04)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: and thank you, especially for all the kind words!(23:04)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Good books should be much thicker, so will your new books be, I hope(23:04)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: Thank you professor, I think I have got something!(23:05)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: btw, if you'd like a preview of the examples we'll be using, to a Google search on JUnit, or go to junit.org(23:05)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i think interface is better used in group communication(23:05)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: then
Pattern Hatching must be dreadful!(23:06)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: seriously, thickness is no indicator of quality(23:06)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: actually, Ido
n't find myself discussing design in terms of interfaces---except for their names, of course(23:07)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Ok. Time is up! Let us Thanks Professor. and we will welcome Professor to China!(23:07)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I hope it can be as thick as C++ Primer(23:07)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: thank you very much(23:07)
paofan对johnvlissides说: bible is also dreadful, but it is great.(23:07)
johnvlissides对大家说: Okay, I'm being dragged out. My heartfelt thanks to everyone!(23:07)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Thank you, john(23:07)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Thanks again!!!(23:08)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Good lunch(23:08)
paofan对johnvlissides说: thank you for your book and your chat.(23:08)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Good Bye,Professor johnvlissides!(23:08)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: n(23:08)
johnvlissides对大家说: Thanks again for everything. Will you make a transcript available?(23:08)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: THANK YOU AGAIN, professor!(23:09)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: email?(23:09)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Exit button on Right-bottom.(23:09)
johnvlissides对umlchina说: Thanks again for everything. Will you make a transcript available?(23:09)
niwalker对johnvlissides说: Bye, John, we all hope see u again(23:09)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Yes, of course with record(23:10)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: vlis@us.ibm.com(23:10)
johnvlissides离开了聊天室.(23:10)
北京时间2001年9月20日（星期四）21:00-23:00。主持人：方春旭(fcx123)嘉宾：John Vlissides，《设计模式》的四位作者之一，并著有另一本畅销书“Pattern Hatching”。现为IBM研究中心研究员。研究领域：面向对象软件设计工具和技术、设计模式、应用架构、界面设计...
blakeli微笑着对大家说: Who have read the book of John Vlissides??(20:21)
lipy对blakeli说: 哪里可以买到？(20:23)
iwxg对blakeli说: How many times have you read this book?(20:24)
blakeli微笑着对大家说: 好多书店都有啊！(20:24)
blakeli微笑着对大家说: I read it littly(20:24)
iwxg对blakeli说: I'm just reading it,but I can't grasp it well.(20:26)
blakeli微笑着对大家说: o! Maybe you will get some advise from Mr.John.(20:28)
umlchina对大家说: GOF's photo at http://www.umlchina.com/Chat/vlissidesinfo.htm(20:29)
babysloth对大家说: Pattern Hatching不错，C++ View上正在连载。(20:29)
umlchina对大家说: Please set your color in BLACK when you talk to each other(20:30)
umlchina对大家说: In BLUE when asking question(20:31)
huangcy对大家说: hello, whendo
we begin
the talk?(20:40)
johnvlissides进入聊天室.(20:47)
feng98对大家说: Hi(20:47)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(20:47)
johnvlissides对大家说: hi!(20:47)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: welcome(20:47)
johnvlissides对大家说: hi everybody!(20:48)
fcx123对大家说: Hello,Prof. johnvlissides! Nice to meeet you.(20:48)
babysloth对大家说: Is everything OK now in New York?(20:48)
umlchina对大家说: 主持人：fcx123(20:48)
johnvlissides对大家说: I wouldn't say everything is okay, but(20:48)
johnvlissides对大家说: things are settlingdo
wn(20:48)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: hello,nice to see you.(20:49)
lipy对johnvlissides说: hello,Mr. John!(20:49)
johnvlissides对大家说: I presume I'm broadcasting now(20:49)
fcx123对大家说: Prof. johnvlissides, Please use red color!(20:49)
johnvlissides对大家说: how's that?(20:50)
umlchina对大家说: 提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝(20:50)
babysloth对大家说: I've written to you and Mr Stroustrup, but only got reply from him.(20:50)
umlchina对大家说: 互相说话：绝对黑色(20:50)
fcx123对大家说: ok. Which one ask first?(20:50)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: that's strange(20:51)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: what's your e-mail address?(20:51)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: babysloth@263.net(20:51)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: i haven't received anything from you(20:51)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: try sending to vlis@us.ibm.com(20:52)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Professor John lissides, can you give us what is the important differences between framework and software architecture?(20:52)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: oh, I'm sorry.(20:52)
johnvlissides对大家说: first of all, a framework is code(20:53)
lipy对johnvlissides说: can you tell me how you start your software designing?(20:53)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I often confuse them in some abstract level.(20:53)
johnvlissides对大家说: it embodies the design of a category of software(20:53)
johnvlissides对大家说: like for example, accounting systems or graphical editors(20:53)
johnvlissides对大家说: "software architecture" is an emerging discipline(20:54)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think the architecture is the begin
of software design, isn't it?(20:54)
johnvlissides对大家说: not unlike building architecture, but with many concrete differences(20:54)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: architecture is most useful for larger projects(20:55)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Can you give me these differences?(20:55)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: design applies to everything that needs to last(20:55)
johnvlissides对lipy说: I got started by writing software!(20:55)
johnvlissides对lipy说: after a while, I learned what worked and what didn't(20:56)
johnvlissides对lipy说: I just had the privilege of writingdo
wn and publishing what I'd learned(20:56)
babysloth对大家说: Well, I'm interesting in the story about how you joined Gang Of Four(or there would be Gang of Three
). Could you please tell us something?(20:56)johnvlissides对huangcy说: most obviously, building architecture deals with buildings(20:56)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: less obviously, software is much more malleable and changes faster(20:57)
lipy对johnvlissides说: what is the name of your new book?(20:57)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Yeah,but I think the software is mostly like building.(20:57)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I can send you a draft of an article that talks about how we got together(20:58)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: send me e-mail at vlis@us.ibm.com requesting it(20:58)
johnvlissides对lipy说: I personallydo
n't have a new book out(20:58)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: in other words,software is more unstable?(20:58)
johnvlissides对lipy说: the last book I authored is Pattern Hatching(20:58)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Oh, thanks!!!(20:59)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: I think there no relations between "analysis pattern" and "design pattern", right?(20:59)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: and maybe change some part frequently? but how about other aspects?(20:59)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: yes. there are lots of physical limitations on how fast you can change a building(20:59)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: software is much easier to change---and break in the process(21:00)
paofan对大家说: Thank you very much. Mr.John. in this special time. U from USA, talking about pattern with us.(21:00)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I just begin
to learn UML in short time?can you give me important advice?(21:00)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I think there are lots of relationships between analysis and design patterns(21:00)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: they are the same relationships that exist between analysis and design themselves(21:01)
simontang_bit对大家说: design and analysis are unified process.(21:01)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: you can't divorce analysis from design. If you try, you'll fail(21:01)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: and Is design patterns used to shield these changes?(21:01)
johnvlissides对paofan说: thank you!(21:02)
jeffray对大家说: where is the john?(21:02)
johnvlissides对paofan说: it's an honor to be here(21:02)
johnvlissides对jeffray说: right here in NY(21:02)
johnvlissides对lipy说: check out Fowler's UML Distilled(21:03)
paofan对大家说: Is pattern about phlisophy? not only model(21:03)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: jeffray, please be polite just as a Chinese!!!(21:03)
johnvlissides对lipy说: if you need to dig deeper, get Rumbaughs Reference Manual(21:03)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: Hmmmm,nice to meet you john ,i am one of your readers.(21:04)
johnvlissides对paofan说: there's a philosphical aspect to patterns, especially as Alexander's(21:04)
lipy对johnvlissides说: thank you very much!(21:04)
johnvlissides对jeffray说: a pleasure to meet you too, jeffray(21:04)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: thanks! I mean analysis focus design module of realist. but desin are focus how to deal with it.(21:04)
lovelybug28对大家说: as a new to design patterns,can you give me some useful advice?(21:05)
johnvlissides对founder_chen说: pleased to meet you, founder(21:05)
paofan对大家说: yeah, from architechure(21:06)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: a good new book is Design Patterns Explained, by Shalloway(21:06)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: great for begin
ners(21:06)
johnvlissides对paofan说: Jim Coplien has written extensively on the "zen" of patterns(21:06)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: thank you ,Professor John lissides(21:07)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: Ok,john,I wanna ask you about the rules to use parterns..(21:07)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Design Patterns Explained? Oh, it's being translated into Chinese, said to be very good.(21:07)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: beyond that, my Pattern Hatching book demonstrates how (not) to use design patterns(21:07)
paofan对大家说: some thing is coming to real. As Alexander's forecast.(21:07)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: above all, though, you have to apply patterns to learn them(21:07)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: you can't just read about them(21:07)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: I mean is there any philosophy choose a partern.(21:07)
qingzuozhou对大家说: Hi, Mr. Johnvlissides, I have a question.(21:08)
johnvlissides对jeffray说: Ido
n't have a hard set of rules to give you, just advice: you have to apply patterns to learn them(21:08)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: yes sir(21:09)
qingzuozhou对大家说: In your 23 design patterns, they are mainly used to design concret small components.(21:09)
qingzuozhou对大家说: How can I use these patterns to construct large system? Are there any design patterns on large system based these small patterns?(21:09)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: er?(21:09)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well, Mr Vlissides, howdo
you think of MVC? Is it a combination of several patterns, a model or a large pattern?(21:09)
lipy对johnvlissides说: Can you tell me how to use "collection manager"?(21:09)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: not necessarily small components, but in general yes, theydo
n't address large-scale architectural concerns(21:09)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: thank you,John! i'm very happy you can reply. i'm reading your bood design patterns.(21:10)
missile对大家说: Nice to meet you !I like Design patterns!Thank you !(21:10)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Professor John lissides,I think the design patterns is the component of application framework, so when you implment a framework you need to concrete some design patterns.(21:10)
johnvlissides对lipy说: send me e-mail about it: vlis@us.ibm.com(21:10)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: what's the relationship between parterns and programming languages?(21:10)
johnvlissides对missile说: glad I could help!(21:11)
jackaroo_yi对大家说: How to write summary design?(21:11)
paofan对大家说: partern-life program-language(21:11)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: itdo
es indeed embody several of our patterns---plus synergies between them, plus some extra stuff(21:11)
paofan对大家说: Is it right? Mr. john.(21:12)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: but when i abstract the framework of software ,i often is in too detail ,Can you give some advices about it?(21:12)
jeffray对johnvlissides说: or-- if i use c++ ,then
I should choose xxx partern,if i use java ,then
i'd better choose some othe parterns,is that true?(21:12)
missile对大家说: I used pattern in a huge project.if no patterns ,Ido
nt know how to realise.(21:12)
qingzuozhou对大家说: there is no any pattern about building an application based on Database in 23 patterns, why?(21:12)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: yes, you can think of it as "instantiating" a pattern---but...(21:12)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: So is MVC also a pattern?(21:12)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: usually the pattern is just a starting point from which to evolve the design to your own needs(21:13)
jackaroo_yi对johnvlissides说: Hello johnvlissides ,how to write(21:13)
johnvlissides对paofan说: not sure I understand what you mean(21:14)
paofan对大家说: sorry, umlchina(21:14)
lipy对johnvlissides说: could you provide me some example of UML designing,Mr. John?(21:14)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: because none of us had enough experience in database applications(21:14)
jackaroo_yi对johnvlissides说: Hello johnvlissides ,how to write detail deisgn with UML .(21:15)
missile对fcx123说: Are you going to write a paterns book about java?(21:15)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: what sort of detail?(21:15)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: there are no patterns about building an application based on Database in 23 patterns, why?(21:15)
paofan对johnvlissides说: pattern give code life. It is new view about program.(21:15)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: the pattern is a starting point ? what is the real meaning? excuse me.(21:15)
johnvlissides对missile说: we've been working on a 2nd edition of Design Patterns for several years(21:15)
johnvlissides对missile说: and most of the code examples are Java(21:16)
paofan对johnvlissides说: Alexander thanks that all building have life too.(21:16)
johnvlissides对missile说: (no idea when 2ed will be out, but it won't be soon)(21:16)
ansen_chen对大家说: When I use paterns,how can i extend it?(21:16)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: in Pattern Hatching I design a file system API using patterns(21:17)
ansen_chen对大家说: please give me some advices(21:17)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: now some people regard pattern as bible.they think pattern can solve everything. howdo
you think of pattern and what is significance for pattern appears?(21:17)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: sometimes, I think the problem too detail ,and i cann't abstract the proper struct from model. and make the framework too detail and reduced its reusablity.(21:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: in more than one case, a pattern got applied in an unorthodox way(21:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: and evolved from there(21:17)
missile对johnvlissides说: I would like to waiting for it ,like waitting for my girl friend!(21:17)
lipy对johnvlissides说: can you talk about the object-oriented database about UML ?(21:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: patterns are meant to be tailored to the problem at hand(21:18)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: that's why they're not code, but prose(21:18)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: they educate you, empower you to solve the problem with your mind turned on(21:18)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: We can find some generic implements of SINGLETON, which we can reuse easily. But how about other patterns? It seems that we can find many.(21:18)
johnvlissides对missile说: wow, now that's a compliment!(21:18)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: sorry, we cannot find many.(21:19)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I have not read your <pattern hatching >,but i read <design patterns..>, What is the main topic of <pattern hatching>?(21:19)
missile对johnvlissides说: Will you write some about Achetechur?(21:19)
johnvlissides对ansen_chen说: are you asking how to apply a pattern, or how to amend its description?(21:19)
babysloth对huangcy说: pattern hatching: design patterns applied(21:20)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: the JDK is full of patterns, particularly Composite, Strategy, Template Method, Prototype, Observer, Decorator, Facade, Abstract Factory....(21:20)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: I want to know there are any patterns about database applications in 2ed of <<Design pattern>>.(21:21)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: Pattern Hatching is part commentary, part tutorial on how to apply patterns, and(21:21)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Yes, we can see the patterns, but we cannot reuse it easily just in form of a class, can we?(21:21)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: but the framework is the codes , I want to make my framework more abstract, and i think it will make it more good.(21:22)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: part a behind-the-scenes look at how the four of us develop patterns(21:22)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/flex-sign-in/ref=cm_rate_rev/104-5101538-2496757#rated-review(21:22)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: nope(21:22)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: The Pattern Almanac has a good set of references to such patterns(21:22)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: people have tried---me, even(21:23)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: code generation generally isn't worth it(21:23)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: how can I use patterns to upgrade old applications? Give some advices please(21:23)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: Alexandrescu's templates work better (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201704315/qid%3D982783857/104-5101538-2496757)(21:23)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think it is a good book for me, I am eager to have a such book.(21:24)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: the old system didn't designed with OO design(21:24)
babysloth对johnvlissides说:do
you mean Modern C++ Design?(21:24)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: framework design is a whole area itself(21:24)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: the best way todo
it is to build several examples of the applications your framework is to target *before* you write the framework(21:24)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: then
you take a step back and come up with an abstraction that caters to all the applications, and then
some(21:25)
ansen_chen对大家说: When I use some patterns,how can i extend it and made it detail?Please give me some advices.(21:25)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: correct(21:25)
ansen_chen对大家说: When I use some patterns,how can i extend it and made it detail?Please give me some advices.(21:25)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Modern C++ Design is not easy to understand.(21:25)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: patterns are useful as targets for refactorings(21:25)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: finer-grain refactorings are even more fundamentally useful(21:26)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: see Fowler's Refactoring book(21:26)
lipy对johnvlissides说: we are changing c module to C++ module ,can you give me some advice?(21:26)
ansen_chen对johnvlissides说: When I use some patterns,how can i extend it and made it detail?Please give me some advices.(21:26)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Abstact the framework from existed system? oh, I see some. thank you very much.(21:26)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: agreed---the template implementations are very hard to understand(21:26)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: but the templates themselves are pretty easy to use(21:26)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Whydo
you choose java in DP 2/e? Have you considered combine Generic Programming and Patterns?(21:27)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I like template very much.(21:27)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: in the markets, are there any tools integrating the patterns into ?(21:27)
johnvlissides对ansen_chen说: my Pattern Hatching book and Shalloway's Design Patterns Explained have many good examples of applying patterns(21:27)
paofan对johnvlissides说: how about pattern's future?(21:28)
johnvlissides对lipy说: why are you changing it?(21:28)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: What about your research recently?(21:28)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: we use mostly Java because it illustrates what we want to show best, and it's also popular(21:28)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,after pattern,do you think what would replace it?(21:29)
lipy对johnvlissides说: can you tell me some other good tool using UML except rose?(21:29)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Wedo
n't know how to create pattern. Can you tell about the exprience that you create those design pattern?(21:29)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I'm a big fan of generic programming, by the way(21:29)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I've worked a bit with Krzysztof Czarnecki(21:29)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: sorry;
Ido
n't understand your question(21:30)
johnvlissides对paofan说: they certainly have on
(21:30)xf_yes对大家说: John, whendo
ing OO design, sometimes i feel it's difficult to control granularity of objects,do
you have any suggestion in this?(21:30)
lipy对johnvlissides说: because our product is changing to the model of Client -Server(21:30)
xf_yes对大家说: i.e. When can we say: ok, let's make this abstraction an object?(21:30)
johnvlissides对paofan说: seriously, the set of patterns will expand and will be refined(21:31)
johnvlissides对paofan说: patterns will be categorized better(21:31)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Oh, I see. I'm trying to learn GP now, so interesting!(21:31)
johnvlissides对paofan说: and more people will use them(21:31)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: a very good point(21:31)
xf_yes对大家说: thanks
John(21:32)qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: Any design tools implements your patterns as templates?(21:32)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: there's a trade-off between granularity/flexibility/cost(21:32)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think GP use the template to abstract the modules, Is it right?(21:32)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Is there a pattern language at present? I mean, a source language to describe the pattern?(21:32)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: the finer grain, the more flexibility, but generally the higher the complexity and costs, especially run-time and maintenance costs(21:32)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well,do
you think GP is a part of OO(as in OOSC), or a independent paradigm?(21:32)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: You are one of the famous master of "design pattern", can you introduce some of your friends in the fields? Hope you to give us their homepage or e-mail box.(21:33)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Can we treat the pattern in a formal way?(21:33)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: And will patterns be combined with GP?(21:33)
xf_yes对johnvlissides说: make sense(21:33)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: you should make it an object if it becomes clear that it can change, and those changes should ripple through the system(21:33)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: it should also be a good abstraction, a good metaphor(21:34)
beartoy对johnvlissides说: I developed a server, but it always throw out of memory exception, it seems stack is not enough, because I used a lot of recursions. Is there any method to solve it? I u(21:34)
paofan对johnvlissides说: yeah, more program will infect future. infect every one.(21:34)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Prof. Can you tell me what is the main different between analysis pattern and design pattern?(21:35)
xf_yes对johnvlissides说: by 'ripple' you mean the object's state change will have influence on other part of the system?(21:35)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: check out IBM's Design Patterns page http://www.research.ibm.com/designpatterns/(21:35)
johnvlissides对xf_yes说: yes: one change leads to another, which leads to another, ...(21:36)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Thanks!(21:36)
lipy对johnvlissides说: Mr. John are you living in China now?(21:36)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Thanks very much for giving me the permission to translate your column Pattern Hatching into Chinese. Should I send you a electronic version of the second article to you?(21:36)
ansen_chen对babysloth说: hi,I am begin
ner.GP is generic patter,is right?(21:36)
qingzuozhou对johnvlissides说: with my experiences, useing pattern often make system more complicate and more codes, how avoid that?(21:36)
johnvlissides对beartoy说: replace (some) recursion with iteration. also it might help to increase the VM's heap size(21:37)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: then
you can make it available online?(21:37)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I'm sure patterns of GP will emerge (that's what I was talking to Krzysztof about)(21:37)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: lots of people have tried to formalize patterns, most notable Amnon Eden (try a Google search)(21:38)
paofan对johnvlissides说: how about culture. IBM join in Linux and Java group, Is it hint the big blue will be more open.(21:38)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: So is "traits" a pattern of GP?(21:38)
johnvlissides对lipy说: nope, I'm in NY (but I'd certainly like to visit China)(21:39)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Can you tell me what is the typical processes when we use software architecture and design pattern and analysis pattern to analysis and design a software system?(21:39)
johnvlissides对lipy说: my father visited in 1972, right after Nixon!(21:39)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: use patterns only when their benefits outweigh their costs(21:39)
johnvlissides对qingzuozhou说: only you can assess that trade-off(21:39)
johnvlissides对ansen_chen说: correct(21:40)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Prof. Design Pattern is temppate of OOD solution, "design pattern","analysis pattern" are very hot nowdays. Can you introduce some other pattern in computer world?(21:40)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: pleasedo
send it(21:40)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Thank you.(21:41)
paofan对johnvlissides说: Is Micrsoft and IBM represent two ways.(21:41)
johnvlissides对paofan说: IBM is big into open source(21:41)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I am in a large company named neusoftcorporation,I like to meet you when you come to china.(21:41)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Sorry, not "temppate" but "template"(21:41)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: yes. I'd call it an idiom, in Jim Coplien's sense(21:41)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: OK. I have to leave now, and I'll see the discussion later.(21:41)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: wow, that's a big question(21:42)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I really appreicate your help.(21:42)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: I like the way Extreme Programming uses patterns(21:42)
supperapplication对大家说: : Can you tell me what is the typical processes when we use software architecture and design pattern and analysis pattern to analysis and design a software system?(21:42)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I want to write letter to you later,can you be tired of me?(21:42)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: Should we think in pattern whiling designing ?(21:42)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: I'll have to defer to the books on that subject(21:42)
frankx对大家说: hi,all(21:43)
johnvlissides对paofan说: not sure what you mean by "represent two ways"(21:43)
fcx123对大家说: Please slowly!
(21:43)huangcy对johnvlissides说:
, It look some big, I just want some main and critical processes.(21:43)johnvlissides对lipy说: love to!(21:43)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: Sorry.(21:43)
j2me对johnvlissides说: dear john,you said "use patterns only when their benefits outweigh their costs" ,but in which way we can know if it brings more benifit or cost to us?(21:44)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: Should we think in pattern whiling designing ?(21:44)
fcx123对大家说: Please ask question one by one!
(21:44)paofan对johnvlissides说: monopolize way and open way(21:44)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Which of your books talk about this subject?(21:44)
johnvlissides对supperapplication说: a big question(21:44)
johnvlissides对supperapplication说: I like the way Extreme Programming applies patterns(21:44)
johnvlissides对supperapplication说: have to defer to those books...(21:44)
johnvlissides对j2me说: good question(21:45)
johnvlissides对j2me说: I think the key is small iterations of development(21:45)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: thank you. I will wait for your book.(21:45)
johnvlissides对j2me说: you introduce patterns when you find you need the flexibility, not in anticipation of supposed needs(21:46)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,howdo
you think of XP?(21:46)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Can you advise some books about this topic? thank you.(21:46)
johnvlissides对j2me说: if you iterate your builds quickly enough, you'll get the feel for the system quicker and change the design accordingly faster(21:46)
johnvlissides对paofan说: oh, I see(21:47)
johnvlissides对paofan说: well, they're both business out to make money(21:47)
cancan对johnvlissides说: Can you tell me how to use design patterns in ERP System?(21:47)
johnvlissides对paofan说: one has tighter control on the consumer market than the other(21:47)
johnvlissides对paofan说: and one has tighter control on the large-scale commerce market(21:47)
paofan对johnvlissides说: but they can control "hack"(21:47)
sealw对johnvlissides说: I think the core of XP is to coding as soon as possible, then
make "patches". What's your oppinion?(21:48)
paofan对johnvlissides说: so IBM will be always "big". but another will die in the future.(21:48)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: if you're into process, check out the Extreme Programming books and also Larman's Applying UML and Patterns book (a new edition is out)(21:48)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: some one think the software architecture as architecture pattern, What's your view about it?(21:49)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I think XP is great, particularly for small-to-midsize projects will ill-defined requirements(21:49)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: thank you, I will .(21:49)
johnvlissides对cancan说: I'm afraid not---not anything specific to ERP systems, anyway(21:50)
johnvlissides对paofan说: "control 'hack'"?(21:50)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Most projects have ill-defined requirement.(21:50)
johnvlissides对sealw说: no, I think the core of XP are the five principles
21:51)johnvlissides对sealw说: rapid feedback, assume simplicity, incremental change, embracing change, and quality work(21:51)
paofan对johnvlissides说: yeah,I feel u aredo
ing missionary work.(21:51)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: architectural patterns are part of the basis for software architecture(21:52)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: I always think nothing will come to a precise condition until they are formalized. Howdo
you think about pattern?(21:52)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: they themselves aren't software architecture(21:52)
paofan对johnvlissides说: in pattern way, very open.(21:52)
j2me对johnvlissides说: I think that the most of the benifits that patertns bring to us is appeared during the rebuilding process,right?(21:52)
fcx123对大家说: Slowly,please!(21:52)
johnvlissides对sealw说: actually not;
the bigger the project, the better the requirements usually are(21:52)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes, you are right. Many programmers in China are misled by RUP...(21:53)
johnvlissides对sealw说: the flight control software for the space shuttle, for example, had very specific requirements(21:53)
pnren对大家说: somepeople say the win2000 is designed specially for going into net,is that true ?(21:54)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I read some book about software architecture , It just give me some Architecture styles, I think they just is architecture pattern. but as you say, What the software arch(21:54)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: I tend to agree. But you can't formalize until you have enough concrete examples from which to abstract(21:54)
paofan对johnvlissides说: so some innocence people will become believer from "hack".(21:55)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: RUP is good for what it's good for---i.e., bigger projects with a good handle on the requirements(21:55)
johnvlissides对j2me说: you mean "refactoring process"? "Rebuilding" has a different connotation around here right about now...(21:55)
johnvlissides对pnren说: Ido
n't know how valid or relevant that is(21:56)
johnvlissides对pnren说: it's an operating system, after all(21:56)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. In mature industry, requests usually are more specific. But in China, most are amature.(21:56)
johnvlissides对pnren说: is unix any less Net-worthy?(21:56)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Howdo
you think of the Zed notation?(21:56)
sealw对johnvlissides说: You can seldom meet Field Experts in China. Userdo
n't know what they want.(21:57)
pnren对johnvlissides说: no(21:57)
paofan对johnvlissides说: chinese programers can't co-work in a team.(21:58)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: I've never used Z myself, but I've seen it used.(21:58)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: It appears to be one of the most popular logic notations out there.(21:58)
johnvlissides对sealw说: they'll figure out, with time(21:58)
paofan对johnvlissides说: pattern way will change them.(21:58)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: You say architecture patterns arenot software architecture, then
What is software architecture? I just think it is the component and connection ,and they setup the system(21:59)
lipy对johnvlissides说: I will go now,I'm glad to meet you tonight.Best regards.(21:59)
johnvlissides对paofan说: why can't chinese programmers cooperate?(21:59)
pnren对johnvlissides说: I am studying Linux on myself now ,I think it is very complex,isn't it ?(21:59)
johnvlissides对pnren说: hey, it's an operating system!(22:00)
johnvlissides对pnren说: pleasure's mine(22:00)
socceracer对大家说: Would you please tell me in which field you find Zed notation is used?(22:00)
johnvlissides对pnren说: oops! that was meant for someone else
(22:00)
johnvlissides对lipy说: pleasures mine!(22:00)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. Time will make us grow up.(22:00)
paofan对johnvlissides说: they think "hack" is clever. they destroy something in foolish way.(22:00)
paofan对johnvlissides说: not to build something.(22:01)
pnren对johnvlissides说: yes,my teacher has tole us it is a very popular OS,so i want to study it(22:01)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: I've seen it used to prove typechecking properties and in security applications, particularly cryptography(22:01)
paofan对johnvlissides说: they hit big, because they are small.(22:01)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I'm back. When will Pattern Hatching 2/e come out? I'm looking forward to it.(22:02)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Question once more: Can you tell about the differnce of "analysis pattern" and "design pattern"?(22:02)
johnvlissides对sealw说: I was referring to all of us, not just China!(22:02)
johnvlissides对sealw说: software technology is still in its infancy(22:02)
sealw对johnvlissides说: for example?(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: analysis patterns capture common solutions to recurringdo
main modeling problems(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: design patterns capture common solutions to recurring program design problems(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I highly recommend studying Linux(22:03)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: great!(22:03)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: haven't thought much about a follow-on to Pattern Hatching(22:04)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I've thought more about publishing a collection of "compound patterns"(22:04)
paofan对johnvlissides说: Are there some links between patter and linux? ;-)(22:04)
sealw对johnvlissides说: So what shall we study in Linux? And what will we learn?(22:04)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: I wrote a lot about them in my column in C++ Report(22:04)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: So what's "compound ptterns" like? could you please say more about the new book?(22:05)
johnvlissides对sealw说: Look how much time it took for the traditional engineering disciplines to develop (100s or 1000s of years)(22:06)
johnvlissides对sealw说: we've been writing software for, what, 50 years?(22:06)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: How about adding the articles after 1998 of the column to PH 2/e?(22:06)
sealw对johnvlissides说: It's said the code quality of Linux is not as good as that of FreeBSD.(22:06)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: re: compound patterns, check out the corresponding articles at http://www.research.ibm.com/designpatterns/publications.htm#Articles(22:07)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: it's not a project yet, btw;
just an idea(22:07)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. It's the benifits of Open Source software, not only Linux.(22:07)
johnvlissides对paofan说: Ido
n't know enough about Linux internals to point out any patterns(22:08)
johnvlissides对paofan说: but I'm sure they're there(22:08)
johnvlissides对sealw说: it's always a good idea to study exemplary software(22:09)
johnvlissides对sealw说: it's the fastest way to learn how to write exemplary software yourself(22:09)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: you think like a book author!(22:09)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Wedo
n't know how to create pattern. Can you tell about the exprience that you create those design pattern?(22:09)
j2me对johnvlissides说: we can learn much experience from other engineering fields to improve our software enginerring(22:10)
johnvlissides对sealw说: Ido
n't know their relative quality(22:10)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Yes. I was stunned when I saw you gave so many example system in your book.(22:10)
thomas_guo对johnvlissides说: So Open Source is great.(22:10)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: sorry,John,personal question:did you stay in NY on 09/11? and were you near to the WTC on that day?(22:10)
fcx123对大家说: one by one,please!(22:10)
johnvlissides对j2me说: agreed. I'm an electrical engineer by training, with some work experience in civil engineering(22:10)
paofan对大家说: A . W E B S I T E . D E V O T E D . T O .. R E B U I L D I N G . T H E . E A R T H http://www.patternlanguage.com/(22:11)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Is analysis pattern concern ofdo
main analysis?(22:11)
sealw对johnvlissides说: Example is not another way of study. It's the only way.(22:11)
freespark对大家说: sorry,someone call me.bye(22:11)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: yes, I was in the parking lot of my office when I heard the news(22:12)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Oh? Um, I'm just a 19-yeah-old student.(22:12)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: (we're about 30 miles from ground zero)(22:12)
johnvlissides对paofan说: thanks for the link!(22:12)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: sorry, 19-year-old.(22:13)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: Certainly!(22:13)
d_jt对大家说: the difference between analysis pattern and design pattern?(22:13)
freeman99对johnvlissides说: Is Rational Rose the best tool for modeling the software's architecture(22:13)
paofan对johnvlissides说: no at all(22:13)
johnvlissides对freespark说: okay, see ya(22:13)
johnvlissides对sealw说: or at least a very good way ;-)(22:13)
windy.j对大家说: since the book 《design pattern(22:14)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: I wouldn't say "just" a 19-year-old student(22:14)
j2me对fcx123说: i think patterns are not created,they are accumulation of the former experience of software developement.(22:14)
fcx123对大家说: Can you give us a few best "design pattern"(URL) resouces?(22:14)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: Keep up the good work that I know you'redo
ing!(22:14)
paofan对johnvlissides说: "The Nature of Order offers a golden thread that connects the innermost center of who we are as humans with the physical environment."(22:15)
paofan对johnvlissides说: This is chinese way.(22:15)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: analysis patterns capture common solutions to recurring problems indo
main modeling(22:15)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: design patterns capture common solutions to recurring problems in program design(22:15)
johnvlissides对j2me说: precisely(22:15)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: the difference between analysis pattern and design pattern?please(22:15)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: check out the Patterns Home Page...(22:16)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: http://hillside.net/patterns/(22:16)
goldarcher对umlchina说: Could you keepdo
wn the track record of this chat?(22:16)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: but if it is true, the analysis pattern can just be reused in samedo
main. then
the analysis is more connected todo
main framework, isn't it?(22:16)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Thank You very much!(22:16)
johnvlissides对paofan说: yes. Alexander was very much inspired by Chinese culture(22:16)
freeman99对johnvlissides说:do
es your book covers J2ee design pattern?(22:17)
paofan对johnvlissides说: thanks, but wedo
n't know, chinese guy.(22:17)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: I'm not sure what a "domain framework" is(22:17)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well, there's so much course to take!(22:17)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: it's our fortunate you are not attacked.
(22:17)d_jt对johnvlissides说: i am familiar with design pattern by your book,can you introduce some analysis pattern books?(22:17)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: you're welcome!(22:17)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Again,Wedo
n't know how to create pattern. Can you tell about the exprience that you create those design pattern?(22:18)
johnvlissides对freeman99说: Nope. But there's a new book of patterns for J2EE...(22:18)
j2me对johnvlissides说: maybe we can said XX patterns capture common solutions to recurring problems in XX field
(22:18)johnvlissides对freeman99说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130648841/qid%3D997452753/104-5101538-2496757(22:18)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I'm very thankful indeed... but many others weren't so blessed(22:19)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: since the book(DP) published,there have been more and more patterns now , could you give us some advice to those patterns learning?(22:19)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: the most popular book is Fowler's Analysis Patterns(22:19)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: In my idea, thedo
main framework is just vertical framework and is reused for the samedo
main' system.(22:20)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: oops, meant that for someone else
...(22:20)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: the most popular book is Fowler's Analysis Patterns(22:20)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201895420/qid=1000995590/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/104-5101538-2496757(22:20)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Howdo
you think differences between applying patterns in a more formalized software engineering method (for example: cleanroom) and a less formalized one(XP...)?(22:20)
johnvlissides对j2me说: that's not wrong!(22:20)
freeman99对johnvlissides说: oh.Can the patterns mentioned in your book be well implemented into J2ee Projects?(22:20)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: the best way to learn patterns is to apply them---as needed, not preemptively(22:21)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: finding patterns is another matter(22:21)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: a help there is The Pattern Almanac(22:22)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201615673/qid%3D960385247/104-5101538-2496757(22:22)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: okay...(22:22)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i have a problem in using stl.complex<int> a ;i declare.but i want this kind of operation a+=complex.stl can'tdo
it?how ?(22:22)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,what languagedo
you mostly use? C++,java,or others?(22:22)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: the bigger the project, the more formality you need(22:22)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: bigger projects tend to have better-known requirements, too(22:23)
johnvlissides对freeman99说: surely;
see http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130648841/qid%3D997452753/104-5101538-2496757(22:23)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i use state pattern+ singleton pattern.but not fit very well(22:23)
pega对大家说: bye all(22:23)
pega对大家说: exit now(22:24)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: Thanks a lot!(22:24)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Can you tell about User Interface Design Pattern?(22:24)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: I'm afraid I'm not an STL expert. Ido
n't use C++ anymore, (slightly) sorry to say(22:24)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: so , my problem is How can analysis pattern make itself reuse?(22:24)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: Java, by far---although I'm notdo
ing heavy-duty programming these days(22:24)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I'm getting old, I guess(22:24)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: then
howdo
you solve this problem in dp?(22:25)
freeman99对johnvlissides说: How can I design distributed applications? Little book has covered that topic.(22:25)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Can you give us your home page address?(22:25)
johnvlissides对pega说: bye, pega(22:25)
johnvlissides对windy.j说: welcome!(22:25)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: very interesting area. Jenifer Tidwell at MIT has beendo
ing a lot of that work(22:26)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: look for her on Google(22:26)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Well, everyone is getting old.(22:26)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: it ifdo
n't fit, then
do
n't use it!(22:26)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Great!(22:26)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: yeah, more framework and design pattern is about UI design.(22:27)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: like any other patterns, analysis patterns won't guarantee reuse. Analysis patterns in particular won't guarantee code reuse(22:27)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: but they may save you having to reinvent ado
main model or two(22:27)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: how old are you,John. but you have powerful thought in programing.(22:27)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: what's the latest evolve in dp?(22:28)
johnvlissides对大家说: all: My home page is at http://www.research.ibm.com/people/v/vlis/(22:28)
windy.j对johnvlissides说: excuse me,do you also know much about analysis patterns?(22:28)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: I think analysis pattern just for analysis reuse, I think it came fromdo
main analysis, Isn't it?(22:28)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: I just turned 40 on 2 August!(22:28)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Can you tell about the expriences that you create those design pattern?(22:29)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: how can we tell idioms from patterns?(22:29)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: well, people are coming up with new patterns and pattern languages all the time(22:29)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: Thank you, John.(22:29)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: PLoP 2001 just took place (9/11 was the first day :-((22:29)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: idioms are simple patterns that are specific to a programming language(22:30)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: i think so too, analysis pattern accelerate thedo
main modeling.(22:30)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: they teach you how to use a particular language like an expert;
they help make you "fluent"(22:30)
paofan对大家说: Had u meet with Chirstopher Alexander.(22:30)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i think the core part of dp is composition and virtual inherit,do you agree?(22:30)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: welcome!(22:30)
johnvlissides对paofan说: I met Alexander at OOPSLA '96(22:31)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: no, I'm afraid Ido
n't agree(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: I guess it depends on what you mean by "core part"(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: virtual inheritance is too C++-specific(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: composition is an important part, as is delegation(22:32)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: I have just see your photo. The baby must be your son;
he is very lovely.(22:32)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i mean the tech part that pattern use(22:32)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: again,I think analysis pattern just for analysis reuse, I think it came fromdo
main analysis, Isn't it?(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: but all these things are about implementation(22:32)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: patterns are equally about describing problems(22:33)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: the biggest problem people face is theydo
n't know what problems have been solved before(22:33)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: thank you! He's nearly 8 years old now.(22:33)
paofan对johnvlissides说: a long time ago.(22:34)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: yes, that's right(22:34)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: that means pattern relate to question only?(22:34)
niwalker对大家说: hi, everyone(22:34)
johnvlissides对paofan说: yes. It was a privilege to meet him.(22:35)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: hi!(22:35)
paofan对johnvlissides说: i am very excite today. the internet make my dream realize. meet u, Mr Jone.(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: no, theydo
n't relate just to questions(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: patterns have several benefits
22:36)johnvlissides对niwalker说: they exposit proven solutions to recurring problems(22:36)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: what else
then
?(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: their names form a vocabulary(22:36)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: they provide targets for refactoring(22:36)
huangcy对johnvlissides说: Nice to talk with you, but i must go, thank you for that you can spend your critical time on talking with us.(22:37)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: and they can validate approaches you're unsure of(22:37)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: oops! all that was meant for someone else
. Sorry!(22:37)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: patterns have several benefits
22:38)johnvlissides对d_jt说: they exposit proven solutions to recurring problems(22:38)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: please(22:38)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: their names form a vocabulary for discussion(22:38)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: they provide targets for refactoring(22:38)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: and they can validate approaches you're unsure of(22:38)
johnvlissides对huangcy说: my pleasure!(22:38)
niwalker对大家说: i like DPB, John, did u write new version of this book?(22:39)
johnvlissides对paofan说: A pleasure meeting you, paofan. Isn't technology (mostly) wonderful?(22:39)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: hmm, not sure which book you mean.(22:40)
paofan对johnvlissides说: yeah! and tomorrow, I will meet SUN's Scott McNealy in Shanghai city.(22:40)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: please explain refactoring(22:40)
johnvlissides对paofan说: whoa!(22:40)
niwalker对大家说: i mean Desing Patterns(22:40)
johnvlissides对paofan说: refactoring is the art of changing code incrementally to make it better without changing its function(22:41)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: we've been working on a 2nd edition for years. No estimated time of arrival, I'm afraid.(22:41)
paofan对johnvlissides说: re-build a java centre in china.(22:41)
niwalker对大家说: i c, thanks(22:42)
johnvlissides对paofan说: why is it being rebuilt? What happened to the original?(22:42)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: interface?alike?(22:43)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: oops, I responded to the wrong person.(22:44)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Talk something private? as you son Matthaw, and erich gamma...(22:44)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: refactoring is the art of changing code incrementally to make it better without changing its function(22:44)
paofan对johnvlissides说: fail for lots of reason. The most important, there are no enough java human resource in shanghai.(22:45)
johnvlissides对umlchina说:do
you want me to broadcast something about my son and Erich?(22:45)
niwalker对大家说: i have chinese edit Design Patterns, can u tell me where can i get English ?(22:45)
johnvlissides对paofan说: ...and the rest of the world, for that matter!(22:45)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: up to you. we are your fans(22:45)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i know,thank you(22:45)
johnvlissides对niwalker说: Try http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201633612/104-5101538-2496757(22:46)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: and have interest...(22:46)
paofan对johnvlissides说: haha(22:46)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: Can you explain the refactoring more detaily?(22:46)
johnvlissides对大家说: umlchina suggests I talk about Erich Gamma---nice things, of course
(22:46)niwalker对johnvlissides说: ok, i'll try, thx John(22:47)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: refactoring is the art of changing code incrementally to make it better without changing its function(22:47)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: go on please(22:47)
johnvlissides对大家说: Erich is from Switzerland, but he looks Italian.(22:48)
johnvlissides对大家说: There's a photo of us at http://www.research.ibm.com/designpatterns/pubs/ddj-eip-award.htm(22:49)
socceracer对johnvlissides说: I must go now. Bye, John. Best wishes for you and your family!(22:50)
johnvlissides对大家说: (we're a bit younger then
)(22:50)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: can you give us some advice indo
main of software?(22:50)
johnvlissides对socceracer说: thanks, socceracer. nice talking to you!(22:50)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Professor,would you please tell about the direction of OBJECT-ORIENTED.(22:51)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: Fowler's book on the subject catalogs a fewdo
zen refactorings you can apply to your code immediately to improve its structure and readability(22:51)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: which one is you in the photo?(22:52)
johnvlissides对大家说: see the caption (I'm 3rd from left)(22:52)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: see the caption (I'm 3rd from left)(22:53)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: what kind of advice?(22:53)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: (your question is very general)(22:53)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: here's some general advice
22:53)johnvlissides对d_jt说: fear complexity(22:54)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: success experience about you(22:54)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: Can you say something about the interface?(22:54)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: seek good abstractions, but only where you're sure they'll help(22:54)
paofan对johnvlissides说: James Gosling is also a pattern chiliast?(22:55)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: good mustache you have.(22:55)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: avoid premature optimization;
optimize algorithms first, then
program structure, then
statements-level(22:55)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: optimization must be driven by objective means (e.g., profiling at the statement level)(22:56)
j2me对johnvlissides说: i must go now, thank you ,bye
(22:56)johnvlissides对d_jt说: read as much code as you can(22:56)
windy.j对johnvlissides说:
Did you four see the later hot selling when you wrote the book?(22:56)johnvlissides对d_jt说: how much code you write isn't as important as how much code you throw away(22:56)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: (I can go on all day!)(22:56)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: my pleasure, j2me!(22:57)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: thanks(22:57)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: John,you r the fourth from left!!!(22:57)
johnvlissides对j2me说: my pleasure, j2me!(22:57)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: oops! that last message was meant for someone else
(22:57)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Professor, Still so many people! Is it your lunch time or stay ten minutes more?(22:57)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: oops! you're right!(22:57)
johnvlissides对大家说: lovelybug28 points out that I'm fourth from the left in the photo(22:58)
johnvlissides对大家说: silly me!(22:58)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说:
(22:58)johnvlissides对大家说: (thanks, lovelybug28)(22:58)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: you have a wonderful smile,
(22:59)johnvlissides对fcx123说: I'm happy to stay on for another 10 minutes or so(22:59)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: this is great fun!(22:59)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: much younger than the 3rd one(22:59)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: the most handsome one in the photo(22:59)
fcx123对大家说: last one minutes! you can ask only one question!
(23:00)johnvlissides对大家说: Maybe it was a Freudian slip---just me wanting to be Erich!
(23:00)johnvlissides对umlchina说: c'mon now!(23:00)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: thanks! you guys are too much!(23:00)
paofan对johnvlissides说: thanks! Mr. jhon, welcom to china.(23:01)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: An excellent lesson from you! Thanks!!!(23:01)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Thank you very much! We all hope to read your new book soon!
(23:02)johnvlissides对paofan说: thank you, paofan.(23:02)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: when'll you come to china?(23:02)
johnvlissides对fcx123说: me too! ;-)(23:02)
paofan对johnvlissides说: U a great.(23:02)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: Professor, Can you say some things about interface, (my last question)(23:02)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Looking forward to your new book(23:02)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: Alas, no plans anytime soon. I'll be happy to make it to OOPSLA in Tampa, Florida, next month.(23:02)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: new book should have some good example(23:03)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: Interfaces are critical to system design, but they can slow youdo
wn if they're frozen too early.(23:03)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i hate the maze(23:03)
johnvlissides对nix00000说: In fact, interface evolution is an important area of research. In case you're interested. ;-)(23:03)
lovelybug28对johnvlissides说: nice to chat with you. thank you, John.(23:04)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: Agreed. The maze wasn't my idea.(23:04)
johnvlissides对lovelybug28说: and thank you, especially for all the kind words!(23:04)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Good books should be much thicker, so will your new books be, I hope
(23:04)nix00000对johnvlissides说: Thank you professor, I think I have got something!(23:05)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: btw, if you'd like a preview of the examples we'll be using, to a Google search on JUnit, or go to junit.org(23:05)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: i think interface is better used in group communication(23:05)
johnvlissides对babysloth说: then
Pattern Hatching must be dreadful!
(23:06)johnvlissides对babysloth说: seriously, thickness is no indicator of quality(23:06)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: actually, Ido
n't find myself discussing design in terms of interfaces---except for their names, of course(23:07)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Ok. Time is up! Let us Thanks Professor. and we will welcome Professor to China!(23:07)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: I hope it can be as thick as C++ Primer
(23:07)d_jt对johnvlissides说: thank you very much(23:07)
paofan对johnvlissides说: bible is also dreadful, but it is great.(23:07)
johnvlissides对大家说: Okay, I'm being dragged out. My heartfelt thanks to everyone!(23:07)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Thank you, john(23:07)
babysloth对johnvlissides说: Thanks again!!!(23:08)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Good lunch(23:08)
paofan对johnvlissides说: thank you for your book and your chat.(23:08)
fcx123对johnvlissides说: Good Bye,Professor johnvlissides!(23:08)
windy.j对johnvlissides说:
n(23:08)johnvlissides对大家说: Thanks again for everything. Will you make a transcript available?(23:08)
nix00000对johnvlissides说: THANK YOU AGAIN, professor!(23:09)
d_jt对johnvlissides说: email?(23:09)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Exit button on Right-bottom.(23:09)
johnvlissides对umlchina说: Thanks again for everything. Will you make a transcript available?(23:09)
niwalker对johnvlissides说: Bye, John, we all hope see u again(23:09)
umlchina对johnvlissides说: Yes, of course with record(23:10)
johnvlissides对d_jt说: vlis@us.ibm.com(23:10)
johnvlissides离开了聊天室.(23:10)