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UMLChina第十四期专家交流实录
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北京时间2002年1月23日（星期三）上午9:30-11:30
嘉宾：Martin Fowler。Martin Fowler在面向对象分析设计、UML、模式、软件开发方法学、XP、重构...方面，都是世界顶级的专家，现为ThoughtWorks首席科学家。Martin Fowler著有4本经典书籍：
Analysis Patterns : Reusable Object Models
UML Distilled: Applying the Standard Object Modeling Language
Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code
Planning Extreme Programming
交流重点：面向对象分析设计、UML、模式、软件开发方法学、XP、重构...
主持人：gigix
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
http://umlchina.smiling.com/group/chat/check_login.ecgi?group_id=9986
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fowler进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:20)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(2002/01/23 09:20)
netrouter对大家说: Hello(2002/01/23 09:20)
gigix对fowler说: Hello! Mr. Fowler(2002/01/23 09:20)
fowler对大家说: glad to be here(2002/01/23 09:20)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:20)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, Please use Red.(2002/01/23 09:20)
extreme对大家说: Hi, Mr. Fowler.(2002/01/23 09:21)
fowler对大家说: This ok?(2002/01/23 09:21)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:21)
gigix对fowler说: Thanks!(2002/01/23 09:21)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:21)
extreme对大家说: OK, OK,(2002/01/23 09:21)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler,do
you know any automaticaly test framework in C++?(2002/01/23 09:22)
fowler对大家说: One of my colleagues,(2002/01/23 09:22)
sky-walker进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:22)
fowler对大家说: Bill Caputo put it together(2002/01/23 09:22)
dba_oracle进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:22)
gigix对大家说: And there's a product?(2002/01/23 09:23)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:23)
szblue进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:23)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:23)
fowler对大家说: Sorry you missed something there: Bill put together an article on my web site(2002/01/23 09:23)
gigix对fowler说: A friend of mine refactoies without test framework, howdo
you think about this?(2002/01/23 09:23)
fowler对大家说: It is very unwise to refactor without tests(2002/01/23 09:24)
zhangxf进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:24)
gigix对大家说: Everybody, Your questions?!(2002/01/23 09:24)
xuzhoush进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:24)
extreme对大家说: Mr. Fowler, Could you please tell us anything about how you write the famous book, Refactoring ?(2002/01/23 09:24)
xuegy对fowler说: how to express a array type in attribute of a class(2002/01/23 09:24)
fowler对大家说: BTW the caputo article is at http://martinfowler.com/articles/ciWithCom.html(2002/01/23 09:24)
netrouter对大家说: It's begin
?(2002/01/23 09:25)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
hard64进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
cyberp2p进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
netpit进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
iq777进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
timwap_cn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
yinhj进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
tomsmart对大家说: hi fowler, when should we make a program to refractor(2002/01/23 09:26)
gigix对fowler说: how to express a array type in attribute of a class in rose(2002/01/23 09:26)
fowler对大家说: I did the refactoring book when I realized that those who knew more were busy with other things(2002/01/23 09:26)
xuegy对fowler说: how to express a array type attribute in a class(2002/01/23 09:26)
umlchina对大家说: 问问题用草原之蓝(2002/01/23 09:26)
fowler对大家说: You should refactor when are adding a feature or fixing a bug and the software makes it hard for you todo
that(2002/01/23 09:27)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:27)
jones_bian进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:27)
netrouter对大家说: Mr. fowler I'm a new gui,pls suggest some books to me, ok?(2002/01/23 09:27)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: some trouble about map objects to relationship DBMS(2002/01/23 09:27)
extreme对大家说: how many years after being a programmer did you realize the importance of refectoringl ?(2002/01/23 09:27)
fowler对xuegy说: Ido
n't understand the array type question - Ido
n't use Rose(2002/01/23 09:27)
cber进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
tomsmart对fowler说: have ever read this book 'Code complete'. I read it recently. I found it is very useful though it was published in 1993(2002/01/23 09:28)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
extreme对大家说: so what UMLdo
tools you use ?(2002/01/23 09:28)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: One class one table,it's really OO,but the performance is a question(2002/01/23 09:28)
sstone进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
vickyday离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:29)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: For information about mapping objects to databases: look at http://martinfowler.com/isa/index.html(2002/01/23 09:29)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: yes,i have read these(2002/01/23 09:29)
fowler对extreme说: I started programming in the early 80's, I first came across refactoring around 1995(2002/01/23 09:29)
lj25进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:29)
extreme对大家说: how many years after being a programmer did you realize the importance of refectoringl ?(2002/01/23 09:30)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: but it's really difficult to choose which mode should be used to map(2002/01/23 09:30)
fowler对tomsmart说: Code Complete is an excellent book(2002/01/23 09:30)
r_l906进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:30)
xiaoweiking进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:30)
fowler对extreme说: Most of my UML diagrams aredo
ne in Visio,using Hruby's template(2002/01/23 09:30)
tomsmart对gigix说: how can I found it??help!(2002/01/23 09:30)
brian fan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:31)
gigix对fowler说: Writing a test framework in C++ and in Java, which one is more difficult?(2002/01/23 09:31)
serenaday对大家说: which team modeldo
you think is the best(2002/01/23 09:31)
extreme对大家说: whydo
n't you use rose ? Isn't it a so-called number one UML tool ?(2002/01/23 09:31)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:31)
fowler对gigix说: I find any programming easier in Java than in C++. I haven't worked in C++ for quite a while now(2002/01/23 09:31)
cyberp2p对大家说: maybe all of us know the important of the SE,but when wedo
in practice,many team's is chaos,how can we settle it?(2002/01/23 09:32)
fowler对serenaday说: Whatdo
you mean by team model?(2002/01/23 09:32)
simoncn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:32)
timwap_cn对大家说: Hi, fowler . is it important for some app to use pattern?(2002/01/23 09:32)
cyberp2p对大家说: maybe all of us know the important of the SE,but when wedo
in practice,many team's is chaos,how can we settle it?(2002/01/23 09:32)
jerryagain进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:32)
fowler对extreme说: Rose is expensive, anddo
es notdo
what I like. So Ido
n't use it much.(2002/01/23 09:32)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
ctm进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
gigix对fowler说: I'm writing a test framework in C++. Can you tell me: What is the most important thing?(2002/01/23 09:33)
fowler对cyberp2p说: You have to add what discipline you can, little by little(2002/01/23 09:33)
britain进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
choupixiong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
serenaday对fowler说: I mean how to build a team(2002/01/23 09:33)
extreme对大家说: so , what is the most popular UML in the states ?(2002/01/23 09:33)
pbi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
fowler对timwap_cn说: It's important to know about patterns, but youdo
n't use them all the time.(2002/01/23 09:34)
simoncn对大家说: Hi Martin, I find it is hard to apply Pair Programming in the real situation.(2002/01/23 09:34)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: It's difficult to keep the inheritance tree in a proper depth(2002/01/23 09:34)
serenaday对fowler说: and howdo
you think about clearcase?(2002/01/23 09:34)
zhangxf对extreme说: Without talking about the ridiculous cost of rose, Together J is still bettetr than Rose, at lease for Java Design and programming(2002/01/23 09:34)
fowler对serenaday说: Team building is a big topic. There's no absolute answers, my preference is to let the team find its own way(2002/01/23 09:35)
invoice进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:35)
iq777对fowler说: Howdo
you abstract knowledge architecture?(2002/01/23 09:35)
panjet进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:35)
extreme对大家说: thanks for your info, zhangxf(2002/01/23 09:35)
fowler对extreme说: Ido
n't know what the most popular UML tool is. I'm not really interested in the answer;-)(2002/01/23 09:35)
ferica对fowler说: i also want to how todo
a team building , tell us more(2002/01/23 09:35)
chtweb进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:35)
timwap_cn对fowler说: what is relation-ship between the Pattern and SW Archtecture?(2002/01/23 09:35)
zhangxf对大家说: agree with SImoncn. I found it difficult too. Only in very rare cases it works smoothly(2002/01/23 09:35)
fowler对simoncn说: You need to find people who are willing to give it a decent try(2002/01/23 09:35)
jeffleo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
simoncn对大家说: The real trouble is to project management.(2002/01/23 09:36)
simoncn对大家说: you will find it is hard to track the cost(2002/01/23 09:36)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Programming is difficult, otherwise it wouldn't be so much fun!(2002/01/23 09:36)
sea77进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
jeffleo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
GeneYuan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
serenaday对fowler说: our team is small ,we only now have 4 people;could you please give us some advise?(2002/01/23 09:36)
zhangxf对大家说: you r welcome, extreme(2002/01/23 09:36)
linden_xu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:37)
fowler对serenaday说: I haven't used clear case. I'm told it's powerful but complicated(2002/01/23 09:37)
timwap_cn对fowler说: and is there some useful web resource for SW architecture ?(2002/01/23 09:37)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, I'm writing a test framework in C++. Would you please tell me: What is the most important thing?(2002/01/23 09:37)
simoncn对大家说: ClearCase is a power toy, but learning curve is also high...(2002/01/23 09:37)
fowler对iq777说: Whatdo
you mean by knowledge architecture?(2002/01/23 09:37)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: can u give me any suggests on how to choose a map strategy?(2002/01/23 09:37)
extreme对大家说: we need a good balance between complexity and simplity, but how ?(2002/01/23 09:37)
serenaday对fowler说: yes,I am trying to use clearcase,but it's hard for me(2002/01/23 09:37)
zhangxf对extreme说:do
you think the combinition of the programmers are curcial in the pair programming, in terms of experience,do
main knowledge and etc.(2002/01/23 09:38)
iq777对fowler说: like UML,IDEF5 etc.(2002/01/23 09:38)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Patterns are a way of describing architecture(2002/01/23 09:38)
simoncn对大家说: Design pattern is into too lower detail(2002/01/23 09:38)
zhangxf对fowler说:do
you think the combinition of the programmers are curcial in the pair programming, in terms of experience,do
main knowledge and etc(2002/01/23 09:38)
simoncn对大家说: Anaylysis pattern is higher(2002/01/23 09:38)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:39)
fowler对simoncn说: Ido
n't find the costs of Pair Programming so much of an issue, when people realize that the hard part of programming isn't the typing.(2002/01/23 09:39)
simoncn对大家说: but I think IBM hasdo
ne a good job in promoting ebiz architecture pattern(2002/01/23 09:39)
fowler对simoncn说: People need to try pair programming to see if it works for them(2002/01/23 09:39)
extreme对大家说: I've never tried pair programming before, Zhangxf(2002/01/23 09:39)
wenytang进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:39)
fowler对serenaday说: What kind of advicedo
you need? A team of four is a good size(2002/01/23 09:39)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:39)
choupixiong对fowler说: Hi,Mr. Fowler, I am learning UML, but I have no chance to apply it and what can Ido
now?(2002/01/23 09:39)
serenaday对大家说:do
you simoncn really think clearcase is a TOY??(2002/01/23 09:40)
yf611x进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:40)
extreme对大家说: whatdo
you think about RUP ? too complex ?(2002/01/23 09:40)
supergaosong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:40)
chtweb对fowler说: I am a begin
ner, how to begin
?(2002/01/23 09:40)
fowler对timwap_cn说: I haven't found much web stuff on SW architecture, of course there is mine - but that's just for Information Systems(2002/01/23 09:40)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
choupixiong对extreme说: agree extreme, the RUP is so complex(2002/01/23 09:41)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: according to XP,custom is a very important role. If wedo
not really have this role,how to "build" a proxy?(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
fowler对gigix说: Are you writing a test framework or some tests for an application?(2002/01/23 09:41)
tomsmart对fowler说: when we have a big project, should we focus more on design other than programming?(2002/01/23 09:41)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
sliuhao进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
jxyclbl进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
lang_han进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
cyberp2p进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
cyberp2p对fowler说: but when the team's member's number is three,do u think that some problem will be found?(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Whatdo
you mean by Map Strategy(2002/01/23 09:41)
candy_lin进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: and how can we make sure the proxy can work correctly?(2002/01/23 09:41)
simoncn对大家说: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/patterns/index.html is a good site about architecture patterns(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: Map Objects to Tables(2002/01/23 09:41)
gigix对fowler说: I'm writing a test framework named "CUnit". It's very like JUnit, but in C++.(2002/01/23 09:42)
lang_han进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:42)
simoncn对大家说: Object-ER mapping(2002/01/23 09:42)
rainlilac进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:42)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:42)
fowler对zhangxf说: Various pair combinations work. Between them they need to know what's needed for the task(2002/01/23 09:42)
serenaday对fowler说: I want some advise on how to build a team of four so that we can work more efficently(2002/01/23 09:42)
gigix对fowler说: Can you give me some advices?(2002/01/23 09:42)
fowler对zhangxf说: Pairing two junior people together can cause difficulties(2002/01/23 09:42)
tensile对umlchina说: hi.(2002/01/23 09:43)
simoncn对大家说: Fowler,do
you have specific comments on the existing technologis in OR mapping?(2002/01/23 09:43)
simoncn对大家说: like, ODMS future(2002/01/23 09:43)
xuxu1976进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:43)
zhangxf对fowler说: exactly, that's what I found too. So isn't the combition and timing are very critical to the success of pair programming?(2002/01/23 09:43)
fowler对choupixiong说: Just try drawing UML diagrams on your own problems. See if it helps you to visualize the software(2002/01/23 09:44)
timwap_cn对fowler说: can UML concept be used to desgin communication SW（except Inofrmation system) ？(2002/01/23 09:44)
zhangxf对大家说: simoncn, did u use toplink or cocobase before?(2002/01/23 09:44)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: I think RUP in general is too complex. It's biggest problem is that it tries to be everything(2002/01/23 09:44)
simoncn对大家说: I have evaluated bunches of OR tools(2002/01/23 09:44)
simoncn对大家说: the real issue is the big semantic difference between Object model and ER model(2002/01/23 09:45)
simoncn对大家说: ER model is based on Set.(2002/01/23 09:45)
simoncn对大家说: so ODBMS is out there to narrow the gap(2002/01/23 09:45)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Finding a customer is important, but Ido
n't have any canned advice for it(2002/01/23 09:45)
szblue进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:45)
zhangxf对大家说: but some part of RUP is really very valuable when the size of the project grows HUGE(2002/01/23 09:45)
fowler对tomsmart说: I think of design and programming as the same thing(2002/01/23 09:46)
achang_hu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:46)
deborah.d进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:46)
brian fan对fowler说: Hello, Mr. Fowler, I have a stupid question. Yes, indeed stupid. But I am still not able to get an answer after I have read 4-5 copies of books.(2002/01/23 09:47)
timwap_cn对大家说: i just got a paper about process improvement , you can get it from rational website ."Principels of Process Improvement" , not bad.(2002/01/23 09:47)
fowler对gigix说: When you port JUnit to another language, it's important to follow the idioms of your language rather than copy the Java design(2002/01/23 09:47)
brian fan对fowler说: My question is, are oo methodologies able to be applied with non-oo programming language? I am a coder of midrange.(2002/01/23 09:47)
zhangxf对simoncn说: right, there is always impedance mismatch in O/R mapping, but some tools are desgined to address that(2002/01/23 09:47)
djhdu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:47)
fowler对simoncn说: I've had good experiences with ODBMS, but they never really caught on :-((2002/01/23 09:47)
candy_lin离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:48)
linden_xu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:48)
simoncn对大家说: yeah, that's the biggest problem of ODBMS, they hardly scale to RDBMS level(2002/01/23 09:48)
britain对大家说: can you tell me how can I get it?(2002/01/23 09:48)
simoncn对大家说: in most cases, I just rely on them to be in-memory-caching(2002/01/23 09:48)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Sadly Ido
n't have time for email these days. Otherwise I would never get any writingdo
ne!(2002/01/23 09:48)
supergaosong对fowler说: How would get from XP?I means,is it can be replace by anything else
?(2002/01/23 09:49)
zhangxf对大家说: Oops, I think the size of this discussion is out of control. The server is extremely slow now(2002/01/23 09:49)
simoncn对大家说: Fowler, Ido
need your insights about Refactoring importance/when todo
in a real tuff project(2002/01/23 09:49)
tomsmart对fowler说: of course, when we translate a design to programming, we say that they both belong to the project. but why did you tell me that they are the same thing?(2002/01/23 09:49)
timwap_cn对大家说: www.therationaledge.com(2002/01/23 09:49)
fowler对brian fan说: Yes you cando
OO design in a non-OO language, but it's much harder. These days there's no point.(2002/01/23 09:49)
viery进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:50)
simoncn对大家说: design in OO concept, but you won't find your language supports it(2002/01/23 09:50)
simoncn对大家说: it is not good for the project implementation(2002/01/23 09:50)
sandy20020111进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:50)
fowler对simoncn说: The key thing about refactoring is todo
a little every day. If there are tools for your language, they help a lot.(2002/01/23 09:51)
zhangxf对大家说: What about XML database? Which is amlost similar to OODB and I saw some really scalable XML databases(2002/01/23 09:51)
deborah.d对大家说: How can I trace the relationship between the business usecase model and use case model ?(2002/01/23 09:51)
britain对大家说: how can I get it ?(2002/01/23 09:51)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:51)
serenaday对fowler说: what tools of version controldo
you think is better to use?(2002/01/23 09:51)
fowler对tomsmart说: Whenever you program you are making design decisions. As you have design ideas, you need to try them out by programming(2002/01/23 09:51)
zhangxf对fowler说: What about during code review. Should wedo
refactoring during review too?(2002/01/23 09:51)
timwap_cn对fowler说: is it right that before the project , i always want to get a good desgin structure ?(2002/01/23 09:52)
britain对大家说: timwap_cn,I can't speak to you(2002/01/23 09:52)
umlchina对大家说: 提问颜色：草原之蓝(2002/01/23 09:52)
fowler对zhangxf说: XML databases are an interesting idea. They may be a good direction for many problems. We will have to see.(2002/01/23 09:52)
zhangxf对fowler说: ok(2002/01/23 09:52)
cyberp2p进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:52)
cyberp2p对fowler说: could u tell us ur thought of using SCM?(2002/01/23 09:52)
ghost_lj进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:53)
fowler对deborah.d说:do
n't worry about detailed traces, they aren't worth the trouble.(2002/01/23 09:53)
fowler对deborah.d说: I suggest Cockburn's book on Use Cases(2002/01/23 09:53)
simoncn对大家说: XML database, some are implemented base on RDBMS, publish XML access API(2002/01/23 09:53)
timwap_cn对fowler说: but some time , i did not know to acheive ? after working , i found the process of project is not reasonable .(2002/01/23 09:53)
fowler对serenaday说: Ido
n't have any particular views on version control tools(2002/01/23 09:53)
simoncn对大家说: the tech of XML DBMS is not revolutionary(2002/01/23 09:53)
simoncn对大家说: unlike ODBMS vs RDBMS(2002/01/23 09:54)
zhangxf对fowler说: what about business use cases. Any book to recommend?(2002/01/23 09:54)
fowler对serenaday说: But Subversion looks like it will be appealing(2002/01/23 09:54)
fowler对zhangxf说: Refactoring during code review can work very well.(2002/01/23 09:54)
whitehare进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:54)
simoncn对大家说: like Fowler, I am busy in some writing these days(2002/01/23 09:54)
zhangxf对simoncn说: These are not native XMLDB, like Orcale, XMLDB is just an interface to RDMS. but there are really some true XMLDBs(2002/01/23 09:55)
xrjiang进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:55)
simoncn对大家说: so really restrict myself to answer email(2002/01/23 09:55)
notyy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:55)
supergaosong离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:55)
simoncn对大家说: sorry(2002/01/23 09:55)
fowler对timwap_cn说: You should sketch out a design before programming, butdo
n't be afraid to change it as you learn(2002/01/23 09:55)
extreme对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, have you ever had such an experience that you thought you have got a good plan, and ended us with mess ? What is your advice to overcome it ?(2002/01/23 09:55)
fowler对zhangxf说: Cockburn's the best on use cases, in any form(2002/01/23 09:56)
simoncn对大家说: whatdo
you think of CRC card?(2002/01/23 09:56)
fowler对extreme说: The most important thing about planning is to keep revaluating and updating the plan(2002/01/23 09:56)
fowler对extreme说: A plan should never be a fixed thing(2002/01/23 09:56)
zhangxf对fowler说: Thanks(2002/01/23 09:56)
timwap_cn对fowler说: I havedo
ne it before programming .how to keep trace the change ?(2002/01/23 09:56)
fowler对extreme说: A plan is best as a platform to understand the consequences of change(2002/01/23 09:56)
simoncn对大家说: I think it sometimes lead to think in procedure design...(2002/01/23 09:56)
supergaosong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:57)
simoncn对大家说: anddo
n't find any good tool support the association(2002/01/23 09:57)
fowler对simoncn说: CRC cards are a good technique for exploring object interactions(2002/01/23 09:57)
babysloth进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:57)
Charity_Zhou对simoncn说: i agree with your viewpoint someway(2002/01/23 09:57)
fowler对timwap_cn说:do
n't try to trace paper designs to code. It's not worth the effort(2002/01/23 09:58)
unimap进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:58)
szblue离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:58)
majordomo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:59)
xuxu1976对大家说: Mr. Fowler,howdo
you think about "component"?(2002/01/23 09:59)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:59)
fowler对ghost_lj说: MS.NET is good technology. It and Java are the main contenders in the future(2002/01/23 09:59)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler,do
you think that design patterns still valuable?do
they courage over-design?(2002/01/23 09:59)
zhangxf对fowler说: whatdo
u mean bydo
n't trace paper design to code? In terms of understanding the code? How about update the design and revise the design and reflect that on the code?(2002/01/23 09:59)
fowler对ghost_lj说: But some of the open source scripting tools are good too (eg Python and Ruby)(2002/01/23 09:59)
viery进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:59)
simoncn对大家说:do
n't forget Tcl, my 0.02(2002/01/23 10:00)
fowler对xuxu1976说: Components are useful but difficult to design well, especially for business software(2002/01/23 10:00)
rantaiqi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:00)
fowler对说: Design patterns are definitely good. You can over use them, but in time you learn to apply them well.(2002/01/23 10:00)
viery对大家说: The theory of refactoring is not complete now,so it needs more personal experience.Can you give me any advice about it?(2002/01/23 10:01)
johnbean进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
xuxu1976对大家说: Mr. Fowler,ya,where can we find the design principle of component?and what's the future of component?(2002/01/23 10:01)
simoncn对大家说: I think the biggest obstacle I have found so far in using Framework is it is much easier to extend rather than trim functions to meet your specific requirements.(2002/01/23 10:01)
fowler对zhangxf说: The code should communicate itself clearly. You should only need brief additionaldo
cuments.(2002/01/23 10:01)
fl_xyg进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
xuxu1976对大家说: simoncn, framework is the most useful reuse method in oo?(2002/01/23 10:02)
fowler对viery说:do
n't wait for more theory of refactoring. Try using it now.(2002/01/23 10:02)
simoncn对大家说: so using Framework to fulfil small business cases really incur a lot of overhead...(2002/01/23 10:02)
johnbean进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:02)
timwap_cn对fowler说: what is your idea aboutdo
cument? is it necessary to record all activities ?(2002/01/23 10:02)
simoncn对大家说: Framework is a group of reusable components(2002/01/23 10:02)
serenaday对大家说: howdo
you think about the new product of microsoft ..net(2002/01/23 10:02)
yizhonghua进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:02)
xu_zh_h进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:02)
simoncn对大家说: but Framework only defines extension points(2002/01/23 10:02)
zhangxf对fowler说: that's the part that Ido
n't agree with XP.(2002/01/23 10:03)
simoncn对大家说: they are hard to trim to fit a small requirements(2002/01/23 10:03)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Onlydo
cuememnt when it's worth the cost both to write and to update(2002/01/23 10:03)
simoncn对大家说: there is no design principle on this issue.(2002/01/23 10:03)
extreme对fowler说: it is said you have to adopt all it's suggested practice if you really want to use XP , is that right , Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:03)
zhangxf对fowler说: I thinkdo
cumentation is important to a big project. which is the media of communication. WHatdo
u think?(2002/01/23 10:03)
serenaday对fowler说: howdo
you think about the new product of microsoft .net(2002/01/23 10:03)
fowler对extreme说: To get the most out of XP it's good todo
all the practices, at least at first(2002/01/23 10:03)
yizhonghua离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:04)
fowler对extreme说: But you also get benefits bydo
ing Continuous Integration and Test First Design on their own(2002/01/23 10:04)
xuxu1976对大家说: simoncn, how to distinguish the framework and component ?(2002/01/23 10:04)
masc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:04)
simoncn对大家说: component is to implement a or a group of function(s)(2002/01/23 10:04)
simoncn对大家说: framework is to address at a higher level, like business process(2002/01/23 10:04)
fowler对zhangxf说: Never forget that your code is the most importantdo
cument you have.(2002/01/23 10:04)
fowler对zhangxf说: Otherdo
cuments can expand upon it(2002/01/23 10:04)
GeneYuan离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:05)
xuxu1976对fowler说: what's the future of component? is the component oriented programming?(2002/01/23 10:05)
fowler对zhangxf说: But the code is the foundation(2002/01/23 10:05)
tensile对simoncn说: how to learn MFC?(2002/01/23 10:05)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:05)
zhangxf对大家说: framework is a incomplete while components are. and framework is generic but components maybe not(2002/01/23 10:05)
extreme对fowler说: I remembered I found some ariticle which aimed to combine XP with RUP , howdo
you like it ?(2002/01/23 10:05)
fowler对zhangxf说: Not enough people work to write clear code(2002/01/23 10:05)
linden_xu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:05)
tensile对simoncn说: how to use <Essential C++> to implement VC?(2002/01/23 10:05)
zhangxf对fowler说: But the problem is not everyone will be reading the code.(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: so that's why XP encourage Refactoring(2002/01/23 10:06)
fowler对tensile说: I wouldn't bother with MFC now, concentrate on .NET(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: in my dev environment, we adopt XP(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: but we cannot afford Pair Programming(2002/01/23 10:06)
tensile对fowler说: thanx.(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: wedo
it after we have code review(2002/01/23 10:07)
fowler对extreme说: There are several XP/RUP articles out there.(2002/01/23 10:07)
extreme对fowler说: Howdo
you like CMM, Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:07)
tensile对gigix说: yeath, thanx.(2002/01/23 10:07)
fowler对zhangxf说: Anybody who isdo
ing technical work should be reading the code(2002/01/23 10:07)
simoncn对大家说: Fowler maybe you should add Code Review in the Refactoring process as an recommendation(2002/01/23 10:07)
simoncn对大家说: yeah, I agree(2002/01/23 10:07)
simoncn对大家说: my managers also read through our code(2002/01/23 10:07)
sungods进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:07)
mypine进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:08)
simoncn对大家说: and point out the places lack of enoughdo
cuments(we use Java, so it is JavaDoc)(2002/01/23 10:08)
tensile对fowler说: but how to read the code?(2002/01/23 10:08)
fowler对simoncn说: I did say in the book that Code Reviews are a good time for refactoring(2002/01/23 10:08)
fowler对ghost_lj说: I'm sorry Ido
n't understand your question(2002/01/23 10:08)
jxyclbl离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:09)
sungods对大家说: 哇塞～～～好cool哦～～(2002/01/23 10:09)
filbert进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:09)
zhangxf对fowler说: In certain projects, yes. Reading code is feasible. But in my recent projects, there are more than 2000 use cases and over 5k classes. Reading code to understand is(2002/01/23 10:09)
sungods对大家说: 坏死了，你欺负人！(2002/01/23 10:09)
mypine对fowler说: hello,MR flower!(2002/01/23 10:09)
zhangxf对fowler说: not feasible and time consuming(2002/01/23 10:09)
simoncn对大家说: you never read through all codes(2002/01/23 10:09)
extreme对fowler说: It is said many Indian companies got CMM 4 level. I am wondering whether it is workable . Howdo
you like it, Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:10)
simoncn对大家说: pick up hotspots and coduct code review(2002/01/23 10:10)
unimap对fowler说: Mr fowler,how can ido
a software test in a project?(2002/01/23 10:10)
sungods对大家说: i see(2002/01/23 10:10)
fowler对zhangxf说: That's when diagrams anddo
cuments come in handy as a map for the code(2002/01/23 10:10)
holyking进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:10)
fowler对zhangxf说: But the details are in the code(2002/01/23 10:10)
mypine对gigix说: Hello,Mr.fowler!(2002/01/23 10:11)
fowler对extreme说: CMM helps identify some good things todo
. Butdo
n'tdo
it to get to some level.(2002/01/23 10:11)
tensile对fowler说: how make the code more effective(2002/01/23 10:11)
masc离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:11)
zhangxf对fowler说: sure. but that's the part XP is misleading or rather vague. The guideline of what todo
cument and what not is the key but also the tricky part(2002/01/23 10:11)
sungods离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:11)
fowler对unimap说: Get hold of a testing framework like JUnit(2002/01/23 10:12)
jerryagain进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:12)
jerryagain对zhangxf说:do
n't mention yourdo
c any more. so boring!(2002/01/23 10:12)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:12)
fowler对zhangxf说: XP isn't againstdo
cuments, it says onlydo
them when they add value(2002/01/23 10:12)
fowler对zhangxf说: It's only the critics of XP who say that you should neverdo
cument in XP(2002/01/23 10:12)
extreme对fowler说: but it's difficult to tell which is valuable.(2002/01/23 10:13)
zhangxf对jerryagain说: I would love to. but that's life and our work. That's the part I think important and like to learn(2002/01/23 10:13)
xiao_ying_ma进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:13)
fowler对jerryagain说: I agree the XP/document issue goes on and on and on (yawn)(2002/01/23 10:13)
mypine对fowler说: which department is the refactoring for?(2002/01/23 10:13)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:14)
unimap对fowler说: on your idear ,which tool can i use to design my test?(2002/01/23 10:14)
fowler对mypine说: Refactoring is something every programmer shoulddo
(2002/01/23 10:14)
jerryagain对zhangxf说: u know some tech from your question? Ido
n't think so!(2002/01/23 10:14)
mypine对fowler说: I think the refactoring is a difficult thing!(2002/01/23 10:14)
fowler对unimap说: This helps you think about what tests you need(2002/01/23 10:15)
mypine对fowler说: But I support the refactoring!(2002/01/23 10:15)
yhufo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:15)
gzly2000进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:15)
zhangxf对fowler说: whatdo
you think about web service? And the workflow integration with web services?(2002/01/23 10:15)
fowler对mypine说: Programming is difficult!(2002/01/23 10:15)
wugang99进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:15)
fowler对mypine说: Refactoring is just part of the task. With practice you get better.(2002/01/23 10:15)
mypine对fowler说: yes(2002/01/23 10:16)
lw011进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:16)
achang_hu离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:16)
unimap对gigix说: 不，我没有用过JUnit，我现在在学用rational rose(2002/01/23 10:16)
mypine对fowler说: refactoring on the structure is most important!(2002/01/23 10:16)
mypine对fowler说: is it?(2002/01/23 10:16)
rantaiqi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:16)
rantaiqi对fowler说: hello, Mr Flower, Can you public your book "UML distilled" in china?(2002/01/23 10:16)
fowler对zhangxf说: We've beendo
ing some good work with web services recently, hopefully I can get them to write about it(2002/01/23 10:16)
fl_xyg对fowler说: whatdo
es design model relate with use-case realization?(2002/01/23 10:16)
andrew.cheng进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:17)
fowler对mypine说: Whatdo
you mean by "on the structure"(2002/01/23 10:17)
extreme对fowler说: Are you still coding at the moment , Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:17)
simoncn对大家说: what's your outlook for the MDA from OMG?(2002/01/23 10:17)
fowler对rantaiqi说: I belive UML Distilled is available in China, at least I've been told it is.(2002/01/23 10:17)
fowler对extreme说: Ido
n't write much production code these days, only when helping as a pair.(2002/01/23 10:18)
fowler对extreme说: Most of the code I write these days is examples for my books(2002/01/23 10:18)
zhangxf对fowler说: Have you worked on some projects with requirements team and development team in two locations? Any pitfalls and diff you can suggest?(2002/01/23 10:18)
rantaiqi对fowler说: But I can't buy this book in china.(2002/01/23 10:18)
fowler对simoncn说: MDA is another programming language, except with diagrams(2002/01/23 10:18)
simoncn对fowler说:do
you think MDA can really be a success?(2002/01/23 10:18)
fowler对simoncn说: It's hard to get a programming language to succeed(2002/01/23 10:18)
extreme对大家说: anybody saw UML Distilled soled in China ? where ?(2002/01/23 10:19)
mypine对fowler说: sorry,that's meat that the system's structure(contains class hiberarchy and their relationship)!(2002/01/23 10:19)
fl_xyg对fowler说: whatdo
es Design Model relate with use-case relization?(2002/01/23 10:19)
wenytang离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:19)
fowler对mypine说: Ido
n't focus on any one area(2002/01/23 10:19)
fowler对mypine说: I would say the most important thing is to remove duplication(2002/01/23 10:19)
fowler对mypine说: The code smells drive the refactoring, rather than any particular set of refactorings(2002/01/23 10:19)
jerryagain离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:20)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, howdo
you think about the term "Software Archietecture"?(2002/01/23 10:20)
fowler对gigix说: Architecture usually means large scale design issues(2002/01/23 10:20)
george0cz进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:20)
fl_xyg对fowler说: whatdo
es Design Model relate with use-case relization?(2002/01/23 10:20)
faun进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:21)
rantaiqi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:21)
mypine对fowler说: yes, the code smells drive your refactring, but then
, the structure will drive you todo
be rafactring,yes?(2002/01/23 10:21)
gigix对fowler说: Can I think it "Large scale design pattern"?(2002/01/23 10:21)
fowler对fl_xyg说:do
n't worry too much about the models(2002/01/23 10:21)
wwabc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:21)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Use a use case to structure some programming you need todo
(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Explore how to implement the use case with various techniques(2002/01/23 10:22)
mypine对fowler说: I found that, if there are some comment that mean you should refactry!(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Class diagrams, interaction diagrams, CRC cards(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Use whatever works for your team(2002/01/23 10:22)
caoj1995进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:22)
majordomo离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: In a one month iteration, two or three days on diagrams is usually enough(2002/01/23 10:23)
simoncn对fowler说: what's your personal opinion of design from Object world then
map to RDBMS, or vice versa(2002/01/23 10:23)
timwap_cn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:23)
timwap_cn对fowler说: the software Archietcure is Desgin mode , or design method ?(2002/01/23 10:23)
mypine对fowler说: to make duplication usually is that the class hiberarchy problem,do
you?(2002/01/23 10:23)
fowler对gigix说: Cppunit has been around for a while. I can't comment on it as Ido
n't use C++ any more(2002/01/23 10:23)
xiao_ying_ma离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:24)
fowler对simoncn说: I like to get a conceptual model first, and derive object and database from that(2002/01/23 10:24)
lw011对fowler说: whatdo
es design model relate with use-case realization?(2002/01/23 10:24)
fowler对simoncn说: Ifdo
main logic is complex then
object model should drive(2002/01/23 10:24)
simoncn对fowler说: in the same time? How to synchronize, especially during design iteration....(2002/01/23 10:24)
fowler对simoncn说: You alsodo
n't need an object model if your application is very simple(2002/01/23 10:25)
timwap_cn对fowler说: is there any mapping position for SW architecure during project ?(2002/01/23 10:25)
simoncn对fowler说: that's another headache to me(2002/01/23 10:25)
mypine对fowler说: Mr. fowler?(2002/01/23 10:25)
timwap_cn对fowler说: or during design phase ?(2002/01/23 10:25)
simoncn对fowler说: yeah, direct mapping to RDBMS, capture biz process in some OID(2002/01/23 10:25)
fowler对lw011说: I answered that question from fl_xyg, see above(2002/01/23 10:25)
mypine对fowler说: can you look at my speaking?(2002/01/23 10:25)
keenqiu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:26)
fowler对mypine说: I'm sorry there are lots of messages here, it's hard to keep up(2002/01/23 10:26)
mypine对fowler说: yes, all right!(2002/01/23 10:27)
fowler对mypine说: That's what Ido
(2002/01/23 10:27)
gigix对大家说: 呵呵，大家稍微慢点，不要太着急。(2002/01/23 10:27)
mr.right进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:27)
heey进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:27)
mypine对fowler说: your answer is our problem's!(2002/01/23 10:28)
fowler对timwap_cn说: I'm afraid Ido
n't understand your question(2002/01/23 10:28)
simoncn对fowler说:do
you agree keep class hierarchy simple(no more than 3 tiers) for distributed computing?(2002/01/23 10:28)
mypine对fowler说: Maby be the problem is irresponsible, but I still want to ask you!(2002/01/23 10:28)
timwap_cn对fowler说: there are many concepts about SW design and project developemnt, how to select the right method for team?(2002/01/23 10:29)
fowler对timwap_cn说: I tend to prefer the agile processes(2002/01/23 10:29)
fowler对timwap_cn说: It's better to err on something a little to lightweight(2002/01/23 10:29)
cntiger进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:30)
brian fan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:30)
wwabc对fowler说:do
es it is nessary to build business use case and use case in a project ?and what relation between them ?(2002/01/23 10:30)
mypine对fowler说: howdo
you think the UML?(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Remember what counts is to deliver software that's valuable to your customer(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Keep your focus on that all the time(2002/01/23 10:30)
timwap_cn对fowler说: sorry , what i mean is how to put the concept into practise ?(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: And ensure that the internal quality of the software is high(2002/01/23 10:30)
unteo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: So you can keep delivering at a good pace(2002/01/23 10:30)
gigix对fowler说: Would you please recommend one of your articles to Chinese developers? I'll be honor to translate and publish it.(2002/01/23 10:31)
fowler对wwabc说: Use cases are useful, but it's usually not necessary to have two kinds of use case(2002/01/23 10:31)
mypine对gigix说: hehe, ado
od idea!(2002/01/23 10:31)
fowler对wwabc说: For a longer (and better) answer I suggest Cockburn's book(2002/01/23 10:31)
fowler对gigix说: The best one that could use a Chinese translation is the one on Continuous Integration(2002/01/23 10:32)
cber离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:32)
tonymao进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:32)
gigix对fowler说: And the URL?(2002/01/23 10:32)
fowler对gigix说: Many of the articles have been translated into Japanese. Is that close enough, or is there a big difference between them?(2002/01/23 10:32)
mypine对fowler说: too comfess(2002/01/23 10:33)
mypine对fowler说: sorry, I send the error message!(2002/01/23 10:33)
simoncn对fowler说: like English Vs.Spanish(2002/01/23 10:33)
gigix对fowler说: There are very, very big difference. 99% Chinese can't read Japanese.(2002/01/23 10:33)
wwabc对fowler说: would tell me where I can find Cockburn's book in china ?thanks(2002/01/23 10:33)
fowler对gigix说: Thanks for letting me know(2002/01/23 10:33)
forrest_smiling进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:33)
fowler对gigix说: The continusous integration article is http://martinfowler.com/articles/continuousIntegration.html(2002/01/23 10:34)
gigix对fowler说: Thanks a lot!(2002/01/23 10:34)
simoncn对fowler说: so you authorize us to republish in Chinese(2002/01/23 10:34)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:34)
mypine对fowler说: I think the UML is not self-contained, so the grand old man like you should modify it,do
you?(2002/01/23 10:34)
fowler对gigix说: I have no problem with a translation. All I need is to retain copyright and a link to the original(2002/01/23 10:35)
fowler对mypine说: I think the UML is close enough(2002/01/23 10:35)
simoncn对大家说: UML is under OMG standard(2002/01/23 10:35)
fowler对mypine说: I wouldn't be interested in working on it any more(2002/01/23 10:35)
fowler对mypine说: I prefer to concentrate on patterns(2002/01/23 10:35)
yhufo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:35)
fl_xyg对fowler说: Sorry,Can you tell me detail about "In a one month iteration, two or three days on diagrams"(2002/01/23 10:36)
kenxia进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:36)
extreme进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:36)
extreme对fowler说: so what is a good resource for design patterns ?(2002/01/23 10:36)
gigix对fowler说: No problem. I introduced you at our magazine, lots of readers wish to read more from you.(2002/01/23 10:36)
mypine对fowler说: is the refactring one part of the patterns ?(2002/01/23 10:36)
fowler对fl_xyg说: If youdo
this then
roughly two days for a one month iteration is fine(2002/01/23 10:36)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Or you cando
the design work gradually over the iteration(2002/01/23 10:36)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:37)
fowler对fl_xyg说: XP likes todo
it gradually(2002/01/23 10:37)
fowler对extreme说: For patterns go to http://hillside.net/(2002/01/23 10:37)
extreme对fowler说: thanks.(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对mypine说: Refactoring is connected with patterns(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对mypine说: Patterns are often the targets of refactoring(2002/01/23 10:38)
yhufo对fowler说: why it is hard to Refactoring database application!(2002/01/23 10:38)
mypine对fowler说: I think the core of the pattern is seperate the metabolic and non-metabolic!(2002/01/23 10:38)
extreme对fowler说: i got it !(2002/01/23 10:38)
mypine对fowler说: yes,yes!(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对yhufo说: Because databases usuallydo
n't have encapsulation(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对yhufo说: Also the integration processes usually aren't very good(2002/01/23 10:38)
heey对fowler说: Is it important to use patterns on designing or programming?(2002/01/23 10:38)
mypine对fowler说: Patterns are often the targets of refactring!(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对yhufo说: And you have to migrate all the data, which takes time if you have a lot of data(2002/01/23 10:39)
hotheartqq进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:39)
越寒进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:39)
poirot进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:39)
mypine对fowler说: good parlance!(2002/01/23 10:39)
fowler对heey说: It's important to know about patterns(2002/01/23 10:39)
fowler对heey说: Youdo
n't need to use them all the time, but youdo
need to be aware of them(2002/01/23 10:39)
leoxy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:40)
kenxia进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:40)
mypine对fowler说: Mr. flower, How to start your refactring usually?(2002/01/23 10:40)
fowler对mypine说: I refactor whenever I'm working on some code and I see a bad smell(2002/01/23 10:40)
越寒对大家说: what shall todo
in embeded system test?(2002/01/23 10:41)
heey对fowler说: Yeah,it is the first thing before using it.(2002/01/23 10:41)
mypine对gigix说: hehe(2002/01/23 10:41)
shenborui进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:41)
mypine对fowler说: What's the bad smell?(2002/01/23 10:41)
blue_eyes进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:41)
yhufo对fowler说: how to find 'bad smell' in my source code!(2002/01/23 10:41)
george0cz进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:41)
poirot对fowler说: Mr. fowler,do
you think that XP is an anti-CMM process?(2002/01/23 10:41)
zhangxf进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
fowler对mypine说: I talk about bad smells in the refactoring book(2002/01/23 10:42)
fowler对mypine说: Duplicated code is a good example of a bad smell(2002/01/23 10:42)
wchenwu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
@悟空@进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
ehuayu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
xxzhu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
gigix对大家说: “Bad Smell”是指不好的代码形式，在refactoring里面列出了21种，首当其冲的就是大类、长方法、重复代码。(2002/01/23 10:42)
shenborui对大家说: 哦，谢谢(2002/01/23 10:42)
fowler对poirot说: Many people in the agile community see CMM as very different to agile methods like XP(2002/01/23 10:43)
gigix对大家说: “Bad Smell”标志这这部分代码需要重构。(2002/01/23 10:43)
mypine对gigix说: Hello?(2002/01/23 10:43)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:43)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:43)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: You mean a big class is bad smell,but in some system,it's really a big class composited by small classes(2002/01/23 10:43)
@悟空@进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:43)
extreme对fowler说: whatdo
you mean by "(2002/01/23 10:44)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Ido
n't see a composite as a big class - a composite is lots of little classes working together(2002/01/23 10:44)
kenxia对fowler说: Hi , fowler.do
you think the UML will kill the coder?(2002/01/23 10:44)
extreme对fowler说: agile commuinity " ?(2002/01/23 10:44)
ydm1979进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:44)
j2ee对大家说: The code lines of a class should less than 1500(2002/01/23 10:45)
fowler对extreme说: The agile community is those people who are interested in agile methods like XP, Scrum, FDD, etc(2002/01/23 10:45)
yhufo对fowler说: in xp wu use Refactoring to impove code,why not design first and write a good code once!(2002/01/23 10:45)
poirot对fowler说: Is XP very popular in U.S. compared to some heavy weight process.(2002/01/23 10:46)
fowler对yhufo说: It's too difficult to get a design completely right up front(2002/01/23 10:46)
fowler对yhufo说: Especially when requirements change(2002/01/23 10:46)
fowler对yhufo说: So you need a mix of up front design and refactoring(2002/01/23 10:46)
yhufo对fowler说: if Refactoring will slowdo
wn the system for more functions and subs!(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对poirot说: XP is still small (it's new) but it's growing(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对yhufo说: Lots of small classesdo
n't slow the systemdo
wn(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对yhufo说: Often they perform better in modern VMs(2002/01/23 10:47)
j2ee对fowler说: What is your opion on write the code and review it vs. write a little, test a little(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对yhufo说: If your profiling indicates you need to push things together, then
do
it.(2002/01/23 10:47)
shenborui对大家说: Mr.fowler , Can u give some advice of to make a good up front design ?(2002/01/23 10:48)
fowler对yhufo说: But only if the profiler shows a benefit(2002/01/23 10:48)
fowler对j2ee说: I certainly prefer write a litte, test a little(2002/01/23 10:48)
fowler对j2ee说: Actually I prefer test a little, write a little ;-)(2002/01/23 10:48)
unimap进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:49)
fowler对j2ee说: And design all the time(2002/01/23 10:49)
fowler对j2ee说: And design all the time(2002/01/23 10:49)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:49)
tensile对fowler说: how to improve the code's quality .(2002/01/23 10:49)
wwabc对fowler说: Mr. flowler,if the next edition of UML will be recommend ,what's new in that version ?(2002/01/23 10:49)
gigix对大家说: ( Mr. Fowler prefer to write test case at first.)(2002/01/23 10:49)
j2ee对fowler说: but someone told me that review is better than test(2002/01/23 10:49)
gigix对大家说: （首先编写测试，测试不能通过，然后再写代码，让测试通过。这是fowler先生比较喜欢的开发过程）(2002/01/23 10:50)
yhufo对fowler说: in china I can not find book <Refactoring> ,but I really want it ,if you can send me a e-book(2002/01/23 10:50)
fowler对tensile说: Simplest way to improve quality is to find and remove duplication(2002/01/23 10:50)
fowler对wwabc说: There aren't any big changes coming up in the UML (as far as I know)(2002/01/23 10:50)
mypine对fowler说: What proportion usually your test time and your coding time?((2002/01/23 10:50)
fowler对j2ee说: Review is good too, but if you test in small increments that works very well(2002/01/23 10:51)
fowler对j2ee说: Most people compare reviews to a lot of code followed by testing(2002/01/23 10:51)
mypine对fowler说: Howdo
you think the gloal method?(2002/01/23 10:51)
fowler对j2ee说: Small code/test cycles are quite different(2002/01/23 10:51)
forrest315进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:51)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:51)
fowler对mypine说: About even: testing and coding.(2002/01/23 10:52)
showway_li进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:52)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:52)
fowler对yhufo说: Sorry Ido
n't have ebooks for my books(2002/01/23 10:52)
poirot对fowler说: In XP, requirement is not stable, software is always changing,(2002/01/23 10:52)
poirot对fowler说:do
es it mean that there must be an very mechanism to track all this changes in XP(2002/01/23 10:52)
fowler对yhufo说: I belive you can get Refactoring in china, some here seem to have it(2002/01/23 10:52)
kenxia很高兴地对fowler说: youdo
n't think the designing is more important than test(2002/01/23 10:52)
fowler对poirot说: A simple mechanism is best. Otherwise people spend too much time on it.(2002/01/23 10:53)
crane_t进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:53)
fowler对kenxia说: Test First Design is a design technique(2002/01/23 10:53)
mypine对fowler说: Is the gloal method the bad smell?(2002/01/23 10:53)
fowler对kenxia说: It makes you think about your interfaces(2002/01/23 10:53)
fowler对kenxia说: And encourages you to keep your code well factored(2002/01/23 10:53)
wwabc对大家说:do
es anyone tell me what's mean of 'XP',thanks(2002/01/23 10:53)
helloliudan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:53)
mypine对wwabc说: 极端程序设计(2002/01/23 10:54)
mypine对wwabc说: Extreme Programming(2002/01/23 10:54)
fowler对wwabc说: XP is short hand for Extreme Programming, see xProgramming.com(2002/01/23 10:54)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:54)
fowler对mypine说: Whatdo
you mean by "gloal method"?(2002/01/23 10:54)
gigix对大家说: （我们现在将XP统一名称为“极限编程”）(2002/01/23 10:54)
yhufo对fowler说: what is the relation between 'design pattern' and 'analyze battern'(2002/01/23 10:55)
socoolliqiang进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:55)
fowler对yhufo说: Analysis patterns are patterns within thedo
main model of a system(2002/01/23 10:55)
gigix对fowler说: That's a term in C++. A global method is a method without any class.(2002/01/23 10:55)
crane_t对fowler说: hello Mr fowler(2002/01/23 10:55)
fowler对yhufo说: They talk about how to model certain commondo
main problems(2002/01/23 10:56)
mypine对fowler说: sorry, It should be "global method"!(2002/01/23 10:56)
fowler对yhufo说: Design patterns are about keeping flexibility in design(2002/01/23 10:56)
fowler对yhufo说: They apply at all points in software(2002/01/23 10:56)
poirot对fowler说: Mr. fowler,do
you think the test cases written before coding is a knid of semantic specification of class function which cannot be achieved by UML?(2002/01/23 10:56)
forrest315对fowler说:do
your mean wedo
n't need test by other people,programer is enough?(2002/01/23 10:56)
trybird进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:56)
helloliudan离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: You'll rarely need more than a few(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: But like most things, they are sometimes the right choice(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: A good C++ book should talk about this, but Ido
n'tdo
C++ any more(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: There aren't any free functions in Java or C#(2002/01/23 10:57)
MikeNiu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对poirot说: Yes, that's a good way to think about it(2002/01/23 10:58)
mypine对fowler说: But there are a static keyboard in Java, it is mean global?(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对poirot说: It's a kind of design by contract by example(2002/01/23 10:58)
poirot对fowler说: Thank you!(2002/01/23 10:58)
extreme进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:58)
extreme对fowler说: in many software houses, we have a project manager, serveral developers and some so-called QA engineers, howdo
you like the organization of the project team ?(2002/01/23 10:58)
windy.j进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:58)
yhufo对fowler说: is that means Analysis pattern is about business logic,design about Software program logic?(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对mypine说: static in Java is same as static in C++ - a class method(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对yhufo说: That's a resonable way of thinking of it(2002/01/23 10:59)
extreme对fowler说: so, we can still get sort of GLOBAL function in java like that in C++.(2002/01/23 10:59)
mypine对fowler说: Oh, yes, it's can be accessed in the same package,but not ohter package!(2002/01/23 10:59)
fowler对extreme说: That's a common organization. It all depends how they work together(2002/01/23 10:59)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:59)
extreme对fowler说: e.g Math.ceil(...) etc.(2002/01/23 10:59)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, windy.j likes your Analysis Patterns very much. She is the first one who translate them.(2002/01/23 11:00)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:00)
fowler对extreme说: The thing is static methods are always hosted on a class(2002/01/23 11:00)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: HI! Martin Fowler.We have long been looking forward to meeting you.You are famous upon the table.You are renowned in chinese developer, perhaps exceed in US.(2002/01/23 11:00)
xissy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:00)
fowler对windy.j说: Thank you fordo
ing the translation(2002/01/23 11:00)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:00)
shaojl进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:01)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: We are all known <Analysis Patterns>,<UML Distilled>,<Refatoring>,<Planning Extreme Programming> and www.martinfowler.com web site.(2002/01/23 11:01)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: With best wishes to you and your wife Cindy and your family!(2002/01/23 11:01)
windy.j对fowler说: Hello Mr.fowler, It's my pleasure.(2002/01/23 11:01)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: What is the difference between the analysis class diagram and the design class diagram?(2002/01/23 11:02)
xiao_xiao进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:02)
wchenwu微笑着对fowler说: I like the method of Refactoring, but it is very hard to practice for me.(2002/01/23 11:02)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: How is polymorphism different from overloading?(2002/01/23 11:02)
fowler对trybird说: Sadly different people use the words differently, so there isn't a single answer to that question(2002/01/23 11:02)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
j2ee对fowler说: When will you use other method than XP, for example RUP, TSP, and why?(2002/01/23 11:03)
sunroger进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
ydm1979进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
extreme对fowler说: Ido
n't think overloading has anything todo
with OO .(2002/01/23 11:03)
fowler对wchenwu说: Find good people to learn from(2002/01/23 11:03)
yhufo对fowler说: if we meet a newdo
main problem ,how me use Analysis pattern to settle this new problem!(2002/01/23 11:03)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
tomsmart对fowler说:do
es refractoring need matephor?(2002/01/23 11:03)
windy.j对fowler说: I'm looking forward to meeting you here, I feel the patterns you gave are very classical,but a little hard to grasp.
(2002/01/23 11:03)
trybird微笑着对大家说: Haha!(2002/01/23 11:03)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:04)
tensile对大家说: when to use XP this method?(2002/01/23 11:04)
fowler对wchenwu说: In refactoring, start by focusing on the smells - particularly duplicate code(2002/01/23 11:04)
j2ee对fowler说: Can will practive Refactoring without unit test?(2002/01/23 11:04)
gigix对extreme说: But overloading gives your code more clarit(2002/01/23 11:04)
mypine对fowler说: I am poor in refactoring and pattern, can you commend some books to me?(2002/01/23 11:04)
fowler对j2ee说: I use the method that the team selects(2002/01/23 11:04)
越寒进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:04)
fowler对j2ee说: A team has to choose XP, you can't impose it(2002/01/23 11:05)
extreme对fowler说: yes, gigix.(2002/01/23 11:05)
fowler对yhufo说: Look to see if there is an analysis pattern connected yourdo
main probklem(2002/01/23 11:05)
fowler对yhufo说: If so try working with it(2002/01/23 11:05)
ydm1979对trybird说: overload + virtual equal polymorphism(2002/01/23 11:05)
lizl_hz进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:05)
fowler对yhufo说: It will never match 100%, but you should gain some insight from it(2002/01/23 11:06)
yhufo对fowler说:do
you know the refactoring tools for VB!(2002/01/23 11:06)
j2ee对fowler说: Howdo
deal with large team, there are many newbie, no enough gurus.(2002/01/23 11:06)
fowler对tomsmart说: Sorry I had refresh my screen, I lose red when Ido
that(2002/01/23 11:06)
extreme对大家说: whatdo
you mean by " overload + virtual ", ydm1979 ?(2002/01/23 11:06)
mypine对fowler说: Are there some tools for Delphi?(2002/01/23 11:06)
lzhihua进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:06)
mypine对fowler说: some factoring tools?(2002/01/23 11:06)
leoxy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
trybird微笑着对大家说: and what is the difference between the analysis class diagram and the design class diagram?(2002/01/23 11:07)
tomsmart对fowler说:do
es refractoring need matephor?(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对windy.j说: So I'm working on the ISA ones at the moment(2002/01/23 11:07)
mypine对extreme说: You should read an OOP book!(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对windy.j说: Maybe I'll get back to analysis patterns later(2002/01/23 11:07)
mouri进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
focusun进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对yhufo说: Ido
n't know of any VB refactoring tools yet(2002/01/23 11:07)
extreme对fowler说: as a programmer, what is your faviourite editor, java IDE, Mr. Fowlwer ?(2002/01/23 11:07)
heey进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:08)
heey对fowler说: Mr.Fowler,in terms of the system of telecom,like BOSS,which software development process will u choose? agile or XP?or something else
?(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对yhufo说: If Ido
, I'll post them on refactoring.com(2002/01/23 11:08)
shenborui对fowler说: Can u recommend some tools for refactoring (for java) ?(2002/01/23 11:08)
poirot对fowler说: Just the other day A India software Engineer told me that the position in software process like SEPG and SQA is boring,do
you think so?(2002/01/23 11:08)
fowler对mypine说: I alsodo
n't know of any Delphi refactoring tools, again I'll post on refactoring.com(2002/01/23 11:08)
mypine对fowler说: Are there some refactoring tools for Delphi?(2002/01/23 11:08)
zf_007进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:08)
fowler对shenborui说: I have a list of refactoring tools at www.refactoring.com(2002/01/23 11:08)
mypine离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:09)
fowler对shenborui说: There are several nice refactoring tools for Java(2002/01/23 11:09)
mypine进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:09)
simoncn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:09)
simoncn对大家说: yeah, IDEAj(2002/01/23 11:09)
fowler对shenborui说: At the moment I use intellj (www.intellij.com) - which is a very nice IDE(2002/01/23 11:09)
lzhihua对大家说: what the bigest difference between rup and xp ?(2002/01/23 11:09)
shenborui对gigix说: ok(2002/01/23 11:09)
fowler对heey说: I'm afraid Ido
n'tdo
telecom, so I can't give good advice for it(2002/01/23 11:10)
windy.j对fowler说: Oh,we know that you are very busy. From the business experiences, to get the patterns ,It looks like the right way ,isn't it?(2002/01/23 11:10)
tensile对gigix说: what is the precise meaning of the refactoring ?(2002/01/23 11:10)
fowler对poirot说: Ido
n't know(2002/01/23 11:10)
fowler对poirot说: We have an indian office now, but we are using agile methods(2002/01/23 11:10)
tomsmart对fowler说: could I have you advice of the procedure for refratoring(2002/01/23 11:11)
fowler对lzhihua说: RUP is more of a process framework and is very complex(2002/01/23 11:11)
poirot对fowler说: how to prevent the tragedy of commons by "everyone owns the code" in XP?(2002/01/23 11:11)
windy.j对fowler说: thanks for your works and your answer(2002/01/23 11:11)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP is simpler and designed for particular kinds of projects(2002/01/23 11:11)
yhufo对fowler说: if we have any Analysis Pattern's Pattern.for we can create somedo
main'sAnalysis pattern by this pattern!(2002/01/23 11:11)
extreme对fowler说: maybe too complex. too manydo
cumentation which drive me crary(2002/01/23 11:11)
gigix对大家说: （Refactoring is the process of changing a software system in such a way that itdo
s not alter the external behavior of the code yet improves its internal structure.(2002/01/23 11:11)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP is very high discipline, so it takes effort to learn(2002/01/23 11:11)
ssimyili进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:11)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:11)
yhufo对fowler说: I mean Pattern in Analysis Pattern(2002/01/23 11:12)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: What is the top-drawer in XP?(2002/01/23 11:12)
shenborui对大家说: sorry, where can i get <Analysis Pattern> in china ?(2002/01/23 11:12)
ssimyili离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:12)
fowler对windy.j说: I get my patterns by looking at what peopledo
(2002/01/23 11:12)
fowler对windy.j说: The ISA patterns come from looking at ThoughtWorks projects(2002/01/23 11:12)
lzhihua对fowler说: what is xp's soul ? refactoring?(2002/01/23 11:12)
tensile对gigix说: what is the exact Chinese meaning of refactoring?(2002/01/23 11:12)
xuegy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:13)
mypine对fowler说: Mr.fowler, Thanks! Bye!(2002/01/23 11:13)
tensile对fowler说: what is the soul of refactoring?(2002/01/23 11:13)
fowler对gigix说: Yes, that's the definition(2002/01/23 11:13)
gzly2000进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:13)
gzly2000对大家说: hai(2002/01/23 11:13)
tensile对fowler说: thanx.(2002/01/23 11:14)
notions进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:14)
lzhihua对fowler说: can you describe the xp in one sentence , just like rupdo
?(2002/01/23 11:14)
fowler对lzhihua说: Ido
n't think you can really describe RUP in one sentance!(2002/01/23 11:14)
tensile对gigix说: windy.j,where can look ur translation?(2002/01/23 11:14)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: What is the top-drawer in XP?(2002/01/23 11:15)
fowler对lzhihua说: I would say XP is an agile process with a strong focus on technical practices.(2002/01/23 11:15)
tensile对gigix说: like c++.(2002/01/23 11:15)
tensile对windy.j说: hi, where can look at ur translation?(2002/01/23 11:16)
windy.j对fowler说: yes，I see,OK,I'll go to the thoughtworks' website to learn the ISA patterns, thank you for your guide.(2002/01/23 11:16)
trybird微笑着对umlchina说: Hi! Old Pan. Glad to meet you!(2002/01/23 11:16)
xiaolizhi168进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:16)
lzhihua对fowler说: rup say : architecture first , use case driven ,iterative develop . right ?(2002/01/23 11:16)
越寒对fowler说: can you describe how to verificate software reliability?(2002/01/23 11:16)
fowler对windy.j说: The ISA patterns are on my site: martinfowler.com(2002/01/23 11:16)
extreme对fowler说: Is there any real projectdo
cumentation created from a real XP projet team which we can reference ?(2002/01/23 11:16)
xissy离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:17)
trybird微笑着对gigix说: Hi!Glad to meet you too!(2002/01/23 11:17)
fowler对extreme说: Ido
n't know of anything publically available(2002/01/23 11:17)
windy.j对tensile说: in the xprogramer articles,cando
wnload from UmlChina(2002/01/23 11:17)
fowler对lzhihua说: Yes but thatdo
esn't say very much about RUPdo
es it?(2002/01/23 11:17)
trybird微笑着对大家说: Sorry! My Boss come!(2002/01/23 11:18)
tensile对gigix说: always turn off the line.(2002/01/23 11:18)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP is also architecture-centric, but encourages an evolving architecture(2002/01/23 11:18)
trybird微笑着对大家说: ****! Go away with me. Bye!(2002/01/23 11:18)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP is also more iterative than RUP, at least in practice(2002/01/23 11:18)
wwabc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:18)
trybird微笑着对大家说: I miss all of you! and Mr Fowler. bye!(2002/01/23 11:19)
trybird微笑着对大家说:(2002/01/23 11:19)
trybird离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:19)
crystal_y进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:19)
gigix对fowler说:do
you know AgileModeling? Howdo
you think about UML in agile process?(2002/01/23 11:19)
windy.j对fowler说: The new account patterns add more contents to the old ones, and sample codes in c++, that's very good.(2002/01/23 11:19)
wyvern进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对gigix说: I've been keeping an eye on Scott Ambler's work(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对gigix说: I think he has some good ideas(2002/01/23 11:20)
tensile对umlchina说: how to use XP to improve the efficiency ?(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对windy.j说: The new account patterns are much more like how I woulddo
analysis patterns now(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对windy.j说: (But the code is actually Java(2002/01/23 11:20)
lzhihua对fowler说: some one said that xp is a simple form of rup .do
you think so ?(2002/01/23 11:21)
fowler对tensile说: the efficiency of what?(2002/01/23 11:21)
yhufo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:21)
yhufo对fowler说:do
you carray out xp in your company?(2002/01/23 11:21)
gigix对fowler说: And howdo
you think about Joshua Kerievsky's works? Are they valuable?(2002/01/23 11:22)
fowler对lzhihua说: You can say that. But since anything is a simple form of RUP itdo
esn't say much!(2002/01/23 11:22)
hugc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:22)
gigix对fowler说: The "Refactorings to Patterns", I mean.(2002/01/23 11:22)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:22)
tensile对fowler说: the company's efficiency and the employee.(2002/01/23 11:22)
fowler对tensile说: We've seen the practices we've used improve our efficiency a lot(2002/01/23 11:23)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:23)
j2ee对fowler说: Can we use refactoring but we have not perform unit test very well?(2002/01/23 11:23)
fowler对tensile说:do
ing refactoring without tests is like a tightrope without a net(2002/01/23 11:23)
andrew.cheng离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:24)
fowler对tensile说: Rather you than me ;-)(2002/01/23 11:24)
fowler对tensile说: Whoops that was to J2EE, something slipped(2002/01/23 11:24)
tensile对fowler说: in my company the employee's efficiency is low.(2002/01/23 11:24)
tensile对fowler说: so my company want to execute CMM or other method.(2002/01/23 11:25)
ericxzhu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:25)
fowler对tensile说: If things are bad, then
CMM will probably help(2002/01/23 11:25)
ericxzhu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:25)
fowler对tensile说: As long as the company concentrates on the process improvement, not getting to a particular level(2002/01/23 11:26)
yhufo对fowler说: what language you use for develop application!(2002/01/23 11:26)
lzhihua对fowler说: i want to import xp into our company . but it seem that it require the developer too much .(2002/01/23 11:26)
extreme对大家说: but CMM seems to be too complex.(2002/01/23 11:26)
@悟空@对fowler说: Mr. fowler, would you please tell me is there any relationship between xp and cmm(2002/01/23 11:26)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP needs the developers to want todo
it and have the discipline to learn it(2002/01/23 11:26)
extreme对fowler说: but CMM seems to be too complex(2002/01/23 11:26)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:27)
gigix对fowler说: But 70% of Chinese software companies has less than 50 people. Is CMM the right selection for them?(2002/01/23 11:27)
tensile对fowler说: govement hope my company can pass CMM.(2002/01/23 11:27)
fowler对extreme说: CMMdo
es not have to be so complex, it depends how it'sdo
ne(2002/01/23 11:27)
Haides进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:27)
fowler对extreme说: Often it'sdo
ne in a way that makes it complex(2002/01/23 11:27)
fowler对gigix说: CMM isn't where I would start, but it's better than a bad companydo
ing nothing(2002/01/23 11:27)
poirot进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:27)
poirot对fowler说:do
you think XP will help a software company to achieve a high CMM level?(2002/01/23 11:27)
tensile对fowler说: but my company haven't specialties of CMM.(2002/01/23 11:28)
j2ee对fowler说: is xp method gennerally accepted by the software companies?(2002/01/23 11:28)
yhufo对fowler说: When we develop a large project we use rup,small one use xp?(2002/01/23 11:28)
hmsr进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:28)
windy.j对fowler说: It's hard to get classes modal from the use cases,would you please give us some advice in this?(2002/01/23 11:28)
tensile对fowler说: then
how todo
?(2002/01/23 11:28)
fowler对poirot说: see http://www.xpuniverse.com/XPandCMM.pdf(2002/01/23 11:28)
lzhihua对fowler说: you said that xp is a technical process. how about the management process in xp ?(2002/01/23 11:29)
fowler对j2ee说: XP is still very new, mainly for early adopters(2002/01/23 11:29)
poirot对fowler说: whatdo
you think of other agile processes besides XP?(2002/01/23 11:29)
tensile对fowler说: your advice?(2002/01/23 11:30)
fowler对yhufo说:do
n't try using XP on anything with more than 20 people until you've used it on smaller projects first(2002/01/23 11:30)
tensile对fowler说: my company have more than 100 men.(2002/01/23 11:30)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP has technical and management processes, but there's more detail on the technical(2002/01/23 11:30)
extreme对大家说: but you can have less 20 men in each project team(2002/01/23 11:31)
越寒对fowler说: pair programing can improve develope efficiency,and how todo
(2002/01/23 11:31)
fowler对gigix说: try this: http://www.xpuniverse.com/XPandCMM.pdf(2002/01/23 11:31)
windy.j对fowler说: That's the most difficult I ever felt, where there is no pattern for refference.(2002/01/23 11:31)
j2ee对fowler说: how will xp interact with project management? In another word, how to management a team that use XP.(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: Or better still: http://www.google.com/search?q=paulk+xp(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: Thank you for having me(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: I've enjoyed the chat(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: I hope to see you in China someday(2002/01/23 11:32)
lzhihua对fowler说:do
you think xp need a stable architecture first ?(2002/01/23 11:32)
brian fan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:32)
hard64进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:32)
hard64对fowler说: can we carry out XP and RUP in a company in parallel?(2002/01/23 11:32)
tensile对gigix说: how todo
in my company?(2002/01/23 11:32)
tensile对fowler说: thanx.(2002/01/23 11:33)
extreme对fowler说: thanks Mr. Fowler.(2002/01/23 11:33)
umlchina对fowler说: Thank you Mr fowler(2002/01/23 11:33)
poirot对fowler说: Thank you very much.(2002/01/23 11:33)
panjet进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:33)
panjet对fowler说: Mr Fowler,Welcome to china!(2002/01/23 11:33)
shenqw对fowler说: Thanks.(2002/01/23 11:33)
umlchina对fowler说: Good night(2002/01/23 11:33)
yhufo对fowler说: Thank you very much(2002/01/23 11:33)
wchenwu微笑着对fowler说: thanks(2002/01/23 11:33)
windy.j对fowler说: thank you sir,you are very welcome here!(2002/01/23 11:33)
wyvern对fowler说: thanks(2002/01/23 11:34)
gigix对fowler说: I'll mail you after a while. Good night.(2002/01/23 11:34)
lzhihua对fowler说: wanna to meet you again(2002/01/23 11:34)
j2ee对fowler说: Thanks very very much. I hope to see you and learn from you in future(2002/01/23 11:34)
fowler离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:34)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
北京时间2002年1月23日（星期三）上午9:30-11:30
嘉宾：Martin Fowler。Martin Fowler在面向对象分析设计、UML、模式、软件开发方法学、XP、重构...方面，都是世界顶级的专家，现为ThoughtWorks首席科学家。Martin Fowler著有4本经典书籍：
Analysis Patterns : Reusable Object Models
UML Distilled: Applying the Standard Object Modeling Language
Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code
Planning Extreme Programming
交流重点：面向对象分析设计、UML、模式、软件开发方法学、XP、重构...
主持人：gigix
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
http://umlchina.smiling.com/group/chat/check_login.ecgi?group_id=9986
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fowler进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:20)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(2002/01/23 09:20)
netrouter对大家说: Hello(2002/01/23 09:20)
gigix对fowler说: Hello! Mr. Fowler(2002/01/23 09:20)
fowler对大家说: glad to be here(2002/01/23 09:20)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:20)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, Please use Red.(2002/01/23 09:20)
extreme对大家说: Hi, Mr. Fowler.(2002/01/23 09:21)
fowler对大家说: This ok?(2002/01/23 09:21)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:21)
gigix对fowler说: Thanks!(2002/01/23 09:21)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:21)
extreme对大家说: OK, OK,(2002/01/23 09:21)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler,do
you know any automaticaly test framework in C++?(2002/01/23 09:22)
fowler对大家说: One of my colleagues,(2002/01/23 09:22)
sky-walker进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:22)
fowler对大家说: Bill Caputo put it together(2002/01/23 09:22)
dba_oracle进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:22)
gigix对大家说: And there's a product?(2002/01/23 09:23)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:23)
szblue进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:23)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:23)
fowler对大家说: Sorry you missed something there: Bill put together an article on my web site(2002/01/23 09:23)
gigix对fowler说: A friend of mine refactoies without test framework, howdo
you think about this?(2002/01/23 09:23)
fowler对大家说: It is very unwise to refactor without tests(2002/01/23 09:24)
zhangxf进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:24)
gigix对大家说: Everybody, Your questions?!(2002/01/23 09:24)
xuzhoush进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:24)
extreme对大家说: Mr. Fowler, Could you please tell us anything about how you write the famous book, Refactoring ?(2002/01/23 09:24)
xuegy对fowler说: how to express a array type in attribute of a class(2002/01/23 09:24)
fowler对大家说: BTW the caputo article is at http://martinfowler.com/articles/ciWithCom.html(2002/01/23 09:24)
netrouter对大家说: It's begin
?(2002/01/23 09:25)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
hard64进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
cyberp2p进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
netpit进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
iq777进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
timwap_cn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
yinhj进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:25)
tomsmart对大家说: hi fowler, when should we make a program to refractor(2002/01/23 09:26)
gigix对fowler说: how to express a array type in attribute of a class in rose(2002/01/23 09:26)
fowler对大家说: I did the refactoring book when I realized that those who knew more were busy with other things(2002/01/23 09:26)
xuegy对fowler说: how to express a array type attribute in a class(2002/01/23 09:26)
umlchina对大家说: 问问题用草原之蓝(2002/01/23 09:26)
fowler对大家说: You should refactor when are adding a feature or fixing a bug and the software makes it hard for you todo
that(2002/01/23 09:27)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:27)
jones_bian进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:27)
netrouter对大家说: Mr. fowler I'm a new gui,pls suggest some books to me, ok?(2002/01/23 09:27)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: some trouble about map objects to relationship DBMS(2002/01/23 09:27)
extreme对大家说: how many years after being a programmer did you realize the importance of refectoringl ?(2002/01/23 09:27)
fowler对xuegy说: Ido
n't understand the array type question - Ido
n't use Rose(2002/01/23 09:27)
cber进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
tomsmart对fowler说: have ever read this book 'Code complete'. I read it recently. I found it is very useful though it was published in 1993(2002/01/23 09:28)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
extreme对大家说: so what UMLdo
tools you use ?(2002/01/23 09:28)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: One class one table,it's really OO,but the performance is a question(2002/01/23 09:28)
sstone进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:28)
vickyday离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:29)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: For information about mapping objects to databases: look at http://martinfowler.com/isa/index.html(2002/01/23 09:29)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: yes,i have read these(2002/01/23 09:29)
fowler对extreme说: I started programming in the early 80's, I first came across refactoring around 1995(2002/01/23 09:29)
lj25进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:29)
extreme对大家说: how many years after being a programmer did you realize the importance of refectoringl ?(2002/01/23 09:30)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: but it's really difficult to choose which mode should be used to map(2002/01/23 09:30)
fowler对tomsmart说: Code Complete is an excellent book(2002/01/23 09:30)
r_l906进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:30)
xiaoweiking进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:30)
fowler对extreme说: Most of my UML diagrams aredo
ne in Visio,using Hruby's template(2002/01/23 09:30)
tomsmart对gigix说: how can I found it??help!(2002/01/23 09:30)
brian fan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:31)
gigix对fowler说: Writing a test framework in C++ and in Java, which one is more difficult?(2002/01/23 09:31)
serenaday对大家说: which team modeldo
you think is the best(2002/01/23 09:31)
extreme对大家说: whydo
n't you use rose ? Isn't it a so-called number one UML tool ?(2002/01/23 09:31)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:31)
fowler对gigix说: I find any programming easier in Java than in C++. I haven't worked in C++ for quite a while now(2002/01/23 09:31)
cyberp2p对大家说: maybe all of us know the important of the SE,but when wedo
in practice,many team's is chaos,how can we settle it?(2002/01/23 09:32)
fowler对serenaday说: Whatdo
you mean by team model?(2002/01/23 09:32)
simoncn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:32)
timwap_cn对大家说: Hi, fowler . is it important for some app to use pattern?(2002/01/23 09:32)
cyberp2p对大家说: maybe all of us know the important of the SE,but when wedo
in practice,many team's is chaos,how can we settle it?(2002/01/23 09:32)
jerryagain进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:32)
fowler对extreme说: Rose is expensive, anddo
es notdo
what I like. So Ido
n't use it much.(2002/01/23 09:32)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
ctm进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
gigix对fowler说: I'm writing a test framework in C++. Can you tell me: What is the most important thing?(2002/01/23 09:33)
fowler对cyberp2p说: You have to add what discipline you can, little by little(2002/01/23 09:33)
britain进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
choupixiong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
serenaday对fowler说: I mean how to build a team(2002/01/23 09:33)
extreme对大家说: so , what is the most popular UML in the states ?(2002/01/23 09:33)
pbi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:33)
fowler对timwap_cn说: It's important to know about patterns, but youdo
n't use them all the time.(2002/01/23 09:34)
simoncn对大家说: Hi Martin, I find it is hard to apply Pair Programming in the real situation.(2002/01/23 09:34)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: It's difficult to keep the inheritance tree in a proper depth(2002/01/23 09:34)
serenaday对fowler说: and howdo
you think about clearcase?(2002/01/23 09:34)
zhangxf对extreme说: Without talking about the ridiculous cost of rose, Together J is still bettetr than Rose, at lease for Java Design and programming(2002/01/23 09:34)
fowler对serenaday说: Team building is a big topic. There's no absolute answers, my preference is to let the team find its own way(2002/01/23 09:35)
invoice进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:35)
iq777对fowler说: Howdo
you abstract knowledge architecture?(2002/01/23 09:35)
panjet进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:35)
extreme对大家说: thanks for your info, zhangxf(2002/01/23 09:35)
fowler对extreme说: Ido
n't know what the most popular UML tool is. I'm not really interested in the answer;-)(2002/01/23 09:35)
ferica对fowler说: i also want to how todo
a team building , tell us more(2002/01/23 09:35)
chtweb进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:35)
timwap_cn对fowler说: what is relation-ship between the Pattern and SW Archtecture?(2002/01/23 09:35)
zhangxf对大家说: agree with SImoncn. I found it difficult too. Only in very rare cases it works smoothly(2002/01/23 09:35)
fowler对simoncn说: You need to find people who are willing to give it a decent try(2002/01/23 09:35)
jeffleo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
simoncn对大家说: The real trouble is to project management.(2002/01/23 09:36)
simoncn对大家说: you will find it is hard to track the cost(2002/01/23 09:36)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Programming is difficult, otherwise it wouldn't be so much fun!(2002/01/23 09:36)
sea77进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
jeffleo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
GeneYuan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:36)
serenaday对fowler说: our team is small ,we only now have 4 people;could you please give us some advise?(2002/01/23 09:36)
zhangxf对大家说: you r welcome, extreme(2002/01/23 09:36)
linden_xu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:37)
fowler对serenaday说: I haven't used clear case. I'm told it's powerful but complicated(2002/01/23 09:37)
timwap_cn对fowler说: and is there some useful web resource for SW architecture ?(2002/01/23 09:37)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, I'm writing a test framework in C++. Would you please tell me: What is the most important thing?(2002/01/23 09:37)
simoncn对大家说: ClearCase is a power toy, but learning curve is also high...(2002/01/23 09:37)
fowler对iq777说: Whatdo
you mean by knowledge architecture?(2002/01/23 09:37)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: can u give me any suggests on how to choose a map strategy?(2002/01/23 09:37)
extreme对大家说: we need a good balance between complexity and simplity, but how ?(2002/01/23 09:37)
serenaday对fowler说: yes,I am trying to use clearcase,but it's hard for me(2002/01/23 09:37)
zhangxf对extreme说:do
you think the combinition of the programmers are curcial in the pair programming, in terms of experience,do
main knowledge and etc.(2002/01/23 09:38)
iq777对fowler说: like UML,IDEF5 etc.(2002/01/23 09:38)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Patterns are a way of describing architecture(2002/01/23 09:38)
simoncn对大家说: Design pattern is into too lower detail(2002/01/23 09:38)
zhangxf对fowler说:do
you think the combinition of the programmers are curcial in the pair programming, in terms of experience,do
main knowledge and etc(2002/01/23 09:38)
simoncn对大家说: Anaylysis pattern is higher(2002/01/23 09:38)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:39)
fowler对simoncn说: Ido
n't find the costs of Pair Programming so much of an issue, when people realize that the hard part of programming isn't the typing.(2002/01/23 09:39)
simoncn对大家说: but I think IBM hasdo
ne a good job in promoting ebiz architecture pattern(2002/01/23 09:39)
fowler对simoncn说: People need to try pair programming to see if it works for them(2002/01/23 09:39)
extreme对大家说: I've never tried pair programming before, Zhangxf(2002/01/23 09:39)
wenytang进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:39)
fowler对serenaday说: What kind of advicedo
you need? A team of four is a good size(2002/01/23 09:39)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:39)
choupixiong对fowler说: Hi,Mr. Fowler, I am learning UML, but I have no chance to apply it and what can Ido
now?(2002/01/23 09:39)
serenaday对大家说:do
you simoncn really think clearcase is a TOY??(2002/01/23 09:40)
yf611x进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:40)
extreme对大家说: whatdo
you think about RUP ? too complex ?(2002/01/23 09:40)
supergaosong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:40)
chtweb对fowler说: I am a begin
ner, how to begin
?(2002/01/23 09:40)
fowler对timwap_cn说: I haven't found much web stuff on SW architecture, of course there is mine - but that's just for Information Systems(2002/01/23 09:40)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
choupixiong对extreme说: agree extreme, the RUP is so complex(2002/01/23 09:41)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: according to XP,custom is a very important role. If wedo
not really have this role,how to "build" a proxy?(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
fowler对gigix说: Are you writing a test framework or some tests for an application?(2002/01/23 09:41)
tomsmart对fowler说: when we have a big project, should we focus more on design other than programming?(2002/01/23 09:41)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
sliuhao进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
jxyclbl进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
lang_han进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
cyberp2p进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
cyberp2p对fowler说: but when the team's member's number is three,do u think that some problem will be found?(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Whatdo
you mean by Map Strategy(2002/01/23 09:41)
candy_lin进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: and how can we make sure the proxy can work correctly?(2002/01/23 09:41)
simoncn对大家说: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/patterns/index.html is a good site about architecture patterns(2002/01/23 09:41)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:41)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: Map Objects to Tables(2002/01/23 09:41)
gigix对fowler说: I'm writing a test framework named "CUnit". It's very like JUnit, but in C++.(2002/01/23 09:42)
lang_han进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:42)
simoncn对大家说: Object-ER mapping(2002/01/23 09:42)
rainlilac进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:42)
bj_zhangyong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:42)
fowler对zhangxf说: Various pair combinations work. Between them they need to know what's needed for the task(2002/01/23 09:42)
serenaday对fowler说: I want some advise on how to build a team of four so that we can work more efficently(2002/01/23 09:42)
gigix对fowler说: Can you give me some advices?(2002/01/23 09:42)
fowler对zhangxf说: Pairing two junior people together can cause difficulties(2002/01/23 09:42)
tensile对umlchina说: hi.(2002/01/23 09:43)
simoncn对大家说: Fowler,do
you have specific comments on the existing technologis in OR mapping?(2002/01/23 09:43)
simoncn对大家说: like, ODMS future(2002/01/23 09:43)
xuxu1976进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:43)
zhangxf对fowler说: exactly, that's what I found too. So isn't the combition and timing are very critical to the success of pair programming?(2002/01/23 09:43)
fowler对choupixiong说: Just try drawing UML diagrams on your own problems. See if it helps you to visualize the software(2002/01/23 09:44)
timwap_cn对fowler说: can UML concept be used to desgin communication SW（except Inofrmation system) ？(2002/01/23 09:44)
zhangxf对大家说: simoncn, did u use toplink or cocobase before?(2002/01/23 09:44)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: I think RUP in general is too complex. It's biggest problem is that it tries to be everything(2002/01/23 09:44)
simoncn对大家说: I have evaluated bunches of OR tools(2002/01/23 09:44)
simoncn对大家说: the real issue is the big semantic difference between Object model and ER model(2002/01/23 09:45)
simoncn对大家说: ER model is based on Set.(2002/01/23 09:45)
simoncn对大家说: so ODBMS is out there to narrow the gap(2002/01/23 09:45)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Finding a customer is important, but Ido
n't have any canned advice for it(2002/01/23 09:45)
szblue进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:45)
zhangxf对大家说: but some part of RUP is really very valuable when the size of the project grows HUGE(2002/01/23 09:45)
fowler对tomsmart说: I think of design and programming as the same thing(2002/01/23 09:46)
achang_hu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:46)
deborah.d进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:46)
brian fan对fowler说: Hello, Mr. Fowler, I have a stupid question. Yes, indeed stupid. But I am still not able to get an answer after I have read 4-5 copies of books.(2002/01/23 09:47)
timwap_cn对大家说: i just got a paper about process improvement , you can get it from rational website ."Principels of Process Improvement" , not bad.(2002/01/23 09:47)
fowler对gigix说: When you port JUnit to another language, it's important to follow the idioms of your language rather than copy the Java design(2002/01/23 09:47)
brian fan对fowler说: My question is, are oo methodologies able to be applied with non-oo programming language? I am a coder of midrange.(2002/01/23 09:47)
zhangxf对simoncn说: right, there is always impedance mismatch in O/R mapping, but some tools are desgined to address that(2002/01/23 09:47)
djhdu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:47)
fowler对simoncn说: I've had good experiences with ODBMS, but they never really caught on :-((2002/01/23 09:47)
candy_lin离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:48)
linden_xu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:48)
simoncn对大家说: yeah, that's the biggest problem of ODBMS, they hardly scale to RDBMS level(2002/01/23 09:48)
britain对大家说: can you tell me how can I get it?(2002/01/23 09:48)
simoncn对大家说: in most cases, I just rely on them to be in-memory-caching(2002/01/23 09:48)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Sadly Ido
n't have time for email these days. Otherwise I would never get any writingdo
ne!(2002/01/23 09:48)
supergaosong对fowler说: How would get from XP?I means,is it can be replace by anything else
?(2002/01/23 09:49)
zhangxf对大家说: Oops, I think the size of this discussion is out of control. The server is extremely slow now(2002/01/23 09:49)
simoncn对大家说: Fowler, Ido
need your insights about Refactoring importance/when todo
in a real tuff project(2002/01/23 09:49)
tomsmart对fowler说: of course, when we translate a design to programming, we say that they both belong to the project. but why did you tell me that they are the same thing?(2002/01/23 09:49)
timwap_cn对大家说: www.therationaledge.com(2002/01/23 09:49)
fowler对brian fan说: Yes you cando
OO design in a non-OO language, but it's much harder. These days there's no point.(2002/01/23 09:49)
viery进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:50)
simoncn对大家说: design in OO concept, but you won't find your language supports it(2002/01/23 09:50)
simoncn对大家说: it is not good for the project implementation(2002/01/23 09:50)
sandy20020111进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:50)
fowler对simoncn说: The key thing about refactoring is todo
a little every day. If there are tools for your language, they help a lot.(2002/01/23 09:51)
zhangxf对大家说: What about XML database? Which is amlost similar to OODB and I saw some really scalable XML databases(2002/01/23 09:51)
deborah.d对大家说: How can I trace the relationship between the business usecase model and use case model ?(2002/01/23 09:51)
britain对大家说: how can I get it ?(2002/01/23 09:51)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:51)
serenaday对fowler说: what tools of version controldo
you think is better to use?(2002/01/23 09:51)
fowler对tomsmart说: Whenever you program you are making design decisions. As you have design ideas, you need to try them out by programming(2002/01/23 09:51)
zhangxf对fowler说: What about during code review. Should wedo
refactoring during review too?(2002/01/23 09:51)
timwap_cn对fowler说: is it right that before the project , i always want to get a good desgin structure ?(2002/01/23 09:52)
britain对大家说: timwap_cn,I can't speak to you(2002/01/23 09:52)
umlchina对大家说: 提问颜色：草原之蓝(2002/01/23 09:52)
fowler对zhangxf说: XML databases are an interesting idea. They may be a good direction for many problems. We will have to see.(2002/01/23 09:52)
zhangxf对fowler说: ok(2002/01/23 09:52)
cyberp2p进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:52)
cyberp2p对fowler说: could u tell us ur thought of using SCM?(2002/01/23 09:52)
ghost_lj进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:53)
fowler对deborah.d说:do
n't worry about detailed traces, they aren't worth the trouble.(2002/01/23 09:53)
fowler对deborah.d说: I suggest Cockburn's book on Use Cases(2002/01/23 09:53)
simoncn对大家说: XML database, some are implemented base on RDBMS, publish XML access API(2002/01/23 09:53)
timwap_cn对fowler说: but some time , i did not know to acheive ? after working , i found the process of project is not reasonable .(2002/01/23 09:53)
fowler对serenaday说: Ido
n't have any particular views on version control tools(2002/01/23 09:53)
simoncn对大家说: the tech of XML DBMS is not revolutionary(2002/01/23 09:53)
simoncn对大家说: unlike ODBMS vs RDBMS(2002/01/23 09:54)
zhangxf对fowler说: what about business use cases. Any book to recommend?(2002/01/23 09:54)
fowler对serenaday说: But Subversion looks like it will be appealing(2002/01/23 09:54)
fowler对zhangxf说: Refactoring during code review can work very well.(2002/01/23 09:54)
whitehare进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:54)
simoncn对大家说: like Fowler, I am busy in some writing these days(2002/01/23 09:54)
zhangxf对simoncn说: These are not native XMLDB, like Orcale, XMLDB is just an interface to RDMS. but there are really some true XMLDBs(2002/01/23 09:55)
xrjiang进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:55)
simoncn对大家说: so really restrict myself to answer email(2002/01/23 09:55)
notyy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:55)
supergaosong离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:55)
simoncn对大家说: sorry(2002/01/23 09:55)
fowler对timwap_cn说: You should sketch out a design before programming, butdo
n't be afraid to change it as you learn(2002/01/23 09:55)
extreme对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, have you ever had such an experience that you thought you have got a good plan, and ended us with mess ? What is your advice to overcome it ?(2002/01/23 09:55)
fowler对zhangxf说: Cockburn's the best on use cases, in any form(2002/01/23 09:56)
simoncn对大家说: whatdo
you think of CRC card?(2002/01/23 09:56)
fowler对extreme说: The most important thing about planning is to keep revaluating and updating the plan(2002/01/23 09:56)
fowler对extreme说: A plan should never be a fixed thing(2002/01/23 09:56)
zhangxf对fowler说: Thanks(2002/01/23 09:56)
timwap_cn对fowler说: I havedo
ne it before programming .how to keep trace the change ?(2002/01/23 09:56)
fowler对extreme说: A plan is best as a platform to understand the consequences of change(2002/01/23 09:56)
simoncn对大家说: I think it sometimes lead to think in procedure design...(2002/01/23 09:56)
supergaosong进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:57)
simoncn对大家说: anddo
n't find any good tool support the association(2002/01/23 09:57)
fowler对simoncn说: CRC cards are a good technique for exploring object interactions(2002/01/23 09:57)
babysloth进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:57)
Charity_Zhou对simoncn说: i agree with your viewpoint someway(2002/01/23 09:57)
fowler对timwap_cn说:do
n't try to trace paper designs to code. It's not worth the effort(2002/01/23 09:58)
unimap进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:58)
szblue离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:58)
majordomo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:59)
xuxu1976对大家说: Mr. Fowler,howdo
you think about "component"?(2002/01/23 09:59)
ferica进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:59)
fowler对ghost_lj说: MS.NET is good technology. It and Java are the main contenders in the future(2002/01/23 09:59)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler,do
you think that design patterns still valuable?do
they courage over-design?(2002/01/23 09:59)
zhangxf对fowler说: whatdo
u mean bydo
n't trace paper design to code? In terms of understanding the code? How about update the design and revise the design and reflect that on the code?(2002/01/23 09:59)
fowler对ghost_lj说: But some of the open source scripting tools are good too (eg Python and Ruby)(2002/01/23 09:59)
viery进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 09:59)
simoncn对大家说:do
n't forget Tcl, my 0.02(2002/01/23 10:00)
fowler对xuxu1976说: Components are useful but difficult to design well, especially for business software(2002/01/23 10:00)
rantaiqi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:00)
fowler对说: Design patterns are definitely good. You can over use them, but in time you learn to apply them well.(2002/01/23 10:00)
viery对大家说: The theory of refactoring is not complete now,so it needs more personal experience.Can you give me any advice about it?(2002/01/23 10:01)
johnbean进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
xuxu1976对大家说: Mr. Fowler,ya,where can we find the design principle of component?and what's the future of component?(2002/01/23 10:01)
simoncn对大家说: I think the biggest obstacle I have found so far in using Framework is it is much easier to extend rather than trim functions to meet your specific requirements.(2002/01/23 10:01)
fowler对zhangxf说: The code should communicate itself clearly. You should only need brief additionaldo
cuments.(2002/01/23 10:01)
fl_xyg进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
serenaday进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:01)
xuxu1976对大家说: simoncn, framework is the most useful reuse method in oo?(2002/01/23 10:02)
fowler对viery说:do
n't wait for more theory of refactoring. Try using it now.(2002/01/23 10:02)
simoncn对大家说: so using Framework to fulfil small business cases really incur a lot of overhead...(2002/01/23 10:02)
johnbean进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:02)
timwap_cn对fowler说: what is your idea aboutdo
cument? is it necessary to record all activities ?(2002/01/23 10:02)
simoncn对大家说: Framework is a group of reusable components(2002/01/23 10:02)
serenaday对大家说: howdo
you think about the new product of microsoft ..net(2002/01/23 10:02)
yizhonghua进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:02)
xu_zh_h进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:02)
simoncn对大家说: but Framework only defines extension points(2002/01/23 10:02)
zhangxf对fowler说: that's the part that Ido
n't agree with XP.(2002/01/23 10:03)
simoncn对大家说: they are hard to trim to fit a small requirements(2002/01/23 10:03)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Onlydo
cuememnt when it's worth the cost both to write and to update(2002/01/23 10:03)
simoncn对大家说: there is no design principle on this issue.(2002/01/23 10:03)
extreme对fowler说: it is said you have to adopt all it's suggested practice if you really want to use XP , is that right , Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:03)
zhangxf对fowler说: I thinkdo
cumentation is important to a big project. which is the media of communication. WHatdo
u think?(2002/01/23 10:03)
serenaday对fowler说: howdo
you think about the new product of microsoft .net(2002/01/23 10:03)
fowler对extreme说: To get the most out of XP it's good todo
all the practices, at least at first(2002/01/23 10:03)
yizhonghua离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:04)
fowler对extreme说: But you also get benefits bydo
ing Continuous Integration and Test First Design on their own(2002/01/23 10:04)
xuxu1976对大家说: simoncn, how to distinguish the framework and component ?(2002/01/23 10:04)
masc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:04)
simoncn对大家说: component is to implement a or a group of function(s)(2002/01/23 10:04)
simoncn对大家说: framework is to address at a higher level, like business process(2002/01/23 10:04)
fowler对zhangxf说: Never forget that your code is the most importantdo
cument you have.(2002/01/23 10:04)
fowler对zhangxf说: Otherdo
cuments can expand upon it(2002/01/23 10:04)
GeneYuan离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:05)
xuxu1976对fowler说: what's the future of component? is the component oriented programming?(2002/01/23 10:05)
fowler对zhangxf说: But the code is the foundation(2002/01/23 10:05)
tensile对simoncn说: how to learn MFC?(2002/01/23 10:05)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:05)
zhangxf对大家说: framework is a incomplete while components are. and framework is generic but components maybe not(2002/01/23 10:05)
extreme对fowler说: I remembered I found some ariticle which aimed to combine XP with RUP , howdo
you like it ?(2002/01/23 10:05)
fowler对zhangxf说: Not enough people work to write clear code(2002/01/23 10:05)
linden_xu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:05)
tensile对simoncn说: how to use <Essential C++> to implement VC?(2002/01/23 10:05)
zhangxf对fowler说: But the problem is not everyone will be reading the code.(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: so that's why XP encourage Refactoring(2002/01/23 10:06)
fowler对tensile说: I wouldn't bother with MFC now, concentrate on .NET(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: in my dev environment, we adopt XP(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: but we cannot afford Pair Programming(2002/01/23 10:06)
tensile对fowler说: thanx.(2002/01/23 10:06)
simoncn对大家说: wedo
it after we have code review(2002/01/23 10:07)
fowler对extreme说: There are several XP/RUP articles out there.(2002/01/23 10:07)
extreme对fowler说: Howdo
you like CMM, Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:07)
tensile对gigix说: yeath, thanx.(2002/01/23 10:07)
fowler对zhangxf说: Anybody who isdo
ing technical work should be reading the code(2002/01/23 10:07)
simoncn对大家说: Fowler maybe you should add Code Review in the Refactoring process as an recommendation(2002/01/23 10:07)
simoncn对大家说: yeah, I agree(2002/01/23 10:07)
simoncn对大家说: my managers also read through our code(2002/01/23 10:07)
sungods进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:07)
mypine进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:08)
simoncn对大家说: and point out the places lack of enoughdo
cuments(we use Java, so it is JavaDoc)(2002/01/23 10:08)
tensile对fowler说: but how to read the code?(2002/01/23 10:08)
fowler对simoncn说: I did say in the book that Code Reviews are a good time for refactoring(2002/01/23 10:08)
fowler对ghost_lj说: I'm sorry Ido
n't understand your question(2002/01/23 10:08)
jxyclbl离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:09)
sungods对大家说: 哇塞～～～好cool哦～～(2002/01/23 10:09)
filbert进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:09)
zhangxf对fowler说: In certain projects, yes. Reading code is feasible. But in my recent projects, there are more than 2000 use cases and over 5k classes. Reading code to understand is(2002/01/23 10:09)
sungods对大家说: 坏死了，你欺负人！(2002/01/23 10:09)
mypine对fowler说: hello,MR flower!(2002/01/23 10:09)
zhangxf对fowler说: not feasible and time consuming(2002/01/23 10:09)
simoncn对大家说: you never read through all codes(2002/01/23 10:09)
extreme对fowler说: It is said many Indian companies got CMM 4 level. I am wondering whether it is workable . Howdo
you like it, Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:10)
simoncn对大家说: pick up hotspots and coduct code review(2002/01/23 10:10)
unimap对fowler说: Mr fowler,how can ido
a software test in a project?(2002/01/23 10:10)
sungods对大家说: i see(2002/01/23 10:10)
fowler对zhangxf说: That's when diagrams anddo
cuments come in handy as a map for the code(2002/01/23 10:10)
holyking进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:10)
fowler对zhangxf说: But the details are in the code(2002/01/23 10:10)
mypine对gigix说: Hello,Mr.fowler!(2002/01/23 10:11)
fowler对extreme说: CMM helps identify some good things todo
. Butdo
n'tdo
it to get to some level.(2002/01/23 10:11)
tensile对fowler说: how make the code more effective(2002/01/23 10:11)
masc离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:11)
zhangxf对fowler说: sure. but that's the part XP is misleading or rather vague. The guideline of what todo
cument and what not is the key but also the tricky part(2002/01/23 10:11)
sungods离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:11)
fowler对unimap说: Get hold of a testing framework like JUnit(2002/01/23 10:12)
jerryagain进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:12)
jerryagain对zhangxf说:do
n't mention yourdo
c any more. so boring!(2002/01/23 10:12)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:12)
fowler对zhangxf说: XP isn't againstdo
cuments, it says onlydo
them when they add value(2002/01/23 10:12)
fowler对zhangxf说: It's only the critics of XP who say that you should neverdo
cument in XP(2002/01/23 10:12)
extreme对fowler说: but it's difficult to tell which is valuable.(2002/01/23 10:13)
zhangxf对jerryagain说: I would love to. but that's life and our work. That's the part I think important and like to learn(2002/01/23 10:13)
xiao_ying_ma进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:13)
fowler对jerryagain说: I agree the XP/document issue goes on and on and on (yawn)(2002/01/23 10:13)
mypine对fowler说: which department is the refactoring for?(2002/01/23 10:13)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:14)
unimap对fowler说: on your idear ,which tool can i use to design my test?(2002/01/23 10:14)
fowler对mypine说: Refactoring is something every programmer shoulddo
(2002/01/23 10:14)
jerryagain对zhangxf说: u know some tech from your question? Ido
n't think so!(2002/01/23 10:14)
mypine对fowler说: I think the refactoring is a difficult thing!(2002/01/23 10:14)
fowler对unimap说: This helps you think about what tests you need(2002/01/23 10:15)
mypine对fowler说: But I support the refactoring!(2002/01/23 10:15)
yhufo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:15)
gzly2000进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:15)
zhangxf对fowler说: whatdo
you think about web service? And the workflow integration with web services?(2002/01/23 10:15)
fowler对mypine说: Programming is difficult!(2002/01/23 10:15)
wugang99进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:15)
fowler对mypine说: Refactoring is just part of the task. With practice you get better.(2002/01/23 10:15)
mypine对fowler说: yes(2002/01/23 10:16)
lw011进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:16)
achang_hu离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:16)
unimap对gigix说: 不，我没有用过JUnit，我现在在学用rational rose(2002/01/23 10:16)
mypine对fowler说: refactoring on the structure is most important!(2002/01/23 10:16)
mypine对fowler说: is it?(2002/01/23 10:16)
rantaiqi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:16)
rantaiqi对fowler说: hello, Mr Flower, Can you public your book "UML distilled" in china?(2002/01/23 10:16)
fowler对zhangxf说: We've beendo
ing some good work with web services recently, hopefully I can get them to write about it(2002/01/23 10:16)
fl_xyg对fowler说: whatdo
es design model relate with use-case realization?(2002/01/23 10:16)
andrew.cheng进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:17)
fowler对mypine说: Whatdo
you mean by "on the structure"(2002/01/23 10:17)
extreme对fowler说: Are you still coding at the moment , Mr. Fowler ?(2002/01/23 10:17)
simoncn对大家说: what's your outlook for the MDA from OMG?(2002/01/23 10:17)
fowler对rantaiqi说: I belive UML Distilled is available in China, at least I've been told it is.(2002/01/23 10:17)
fowler对extreme说: Ido
n't write much production code these days, only when helping as a pair.(2002/01/23 10:18)
fowler对extreme说: Most of the code I write these days is examples for my books(2002/01/23 10:18)
zhangxf对fowler说: Have you worked on some projects with requirements team and development team in two locations? Any pitfalls and diff you can suggest?(2002/01/23 10:18)
rantaiqi对fowler说: But I can't buy this book in china.(2002/01/23 10:18)
fowler对simoncn说: MDA is another programming language, except with diagrams(2002/01/23 10:18)
simoncn对fowler说:do
you think MDA can really be a success?(2002/01/23 10:18)
fowler对simoncn说: It's hard to get a programming language to succeed(2002/01/23 10:18)
extreme对大家说: anybody saw UML Distilled soled in China ? where ?(2002/01/23 10:19)
mypine对fowler说: sorry,that's meat that the system's structure(contains class hiberarchy and their relationship)!(2002/01/23 10:19)
fl_xyg对fowler说: whatdo
es Design Model relate with use-case relization?(2002/01/23 10:19)
wenytang离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:19)
fowler对mypine说: Ido
n't focus on any one area(2002/01/23 10:19)
fowler对mypine说: I would say the most important thing is to remove duplication(2002/01/23 10:19)
fowler对mypine说: The code smells drive the refactoring, rather than any particular set of refactorings(2002/01/23 10:19)
jerryagain离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:20)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, howdo
you think about the term "Software Archietecture"?(2002/01/23 10:20)
fowler对gigix说: Architecture usually means large scale design issues(2002/01/23 10:20)
george0cz进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:20)
fl_xyg对fowler说: whatdo
es Design Model relate with use-case relization?(2002/01/23 10:20)
faun进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:21)
rantaiqi进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:21)
mypine对fowler说: yes, the code smells drive your refactring, but then
, the structure will drive you todo
be rafactring,yes?(2002/01/23 10:21)
gigix对fowler说: Can I think it "Large scale design pattern"?(2002/01/23 10:21)
fowler对fl_xyg说:do
n't worry too much about the models(2002/01/23 10:21)
wwabc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:21)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Use a use case to structure some programming you need todo
(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Explore how to implement the use case with various techniques(2002/01/23 10:22)
mypine对fowler说: I found that, if there are some comment that mean you should refactry!(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Class diagrams, interaction diagrams, CRC cards(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Use whatever works for your team(2002/01/23 10:22)
caoj1995进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:22)
majordomo离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:22)
fowler对fl_xyg说: In a one month iteration, two or three days on diagrams is usually enough(2002/01/23 10:23)
simoncn对fowler说: what's your personal opinion of design from Object world then
map to RDBMS, or vice versa(2002/01/23 10:23)
timwap_cn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:23)
timwap_cn对fowler说: the software Archietcure is Desgin mode , or design method ?(2002/01/23 10:23)
mypine对fowler说: to make duplication usually is that the class hiberarchy problem,do
you?(2002/01/23 10:23)
fowler对gigix说: Cppunit has been around for a while. I can't comment on it as Ido
n't use C++ any more(2002/01/23 10:23)
xiao_ying_ma离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:24)
fowler对simoncn说: I like to get a conceptual model first, and derive object and database from that(2002/01/23 10:24)
lw011对fowler说: whatdo
es design model relate with use-case realization?(2002/01/23 10:24)
fowler对simoncn说: Ifdo
main logic is complex then
object model should drive(2002/01/23 10:24)
simoncn对fowler说: in the same time? How to synchronize, especially during design iteration....(2002/01/23 10:24)
fowler对simoncn说: You alsodo
n't need an object model if your application is very simple(2002/01/23 10:25)
timwap_cn对fowler说: is there any mapping position for SW architecure during project ?(2002/01/23 10:25)
simoncn对fowler说: that's another headache to me(2002/01/23 10:25)
mypine对fowler说: Mr. fowler?(2002/01/23 10:25)
timwap_cn对fowler说: or during design phase ?(2002/01/23 10:25)
simoncn对fowler说: yeah, direct mapping to RDBMS, capture biz process in some OID(2002/01/23 10:25)
fowler对lw011说: I answered that question from fl_xyg, see above(2002/01/23 10:25)
mypine对fowler说: can you look at my speaking?(2002/01/23 10:25)
keenqiu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:26)
fowler对mypine说: I'm sorry there are lots of messages here, it's hard to keep up(2002/01/23 10:26)
mypine对fowler说: yes, all right!(2002/01/23 10:27)
fowler对mypine说: That's what Ido
(2002/01/23 10:27)
gigix对大家说: 呵呵，大家稍微慢点，不要太着急。(2002/01/23 10:27)
mr.right进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:27)
heey进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:27)
mypine对fowler说: your answer is our problem's!(2002/01/23 10:28)
fowler对timwap_cn说: I'm afraid Ido
n't understand your question(2002/01/23 10:28)
simoncn对fowler说:do
you agree keep class hierarchy simple(no more than 3 tiers) for distributed computing?(2002/01/23 10:28)
mypine对fowler说: Maby be the problem is irresponsible, but I still want to ask you!(2002/01/23 10:28)
timwap_cn对fowler说: there are many concepts about SW design and project developemnt, how to select the right method for team?(2002/01/23 10:29)
fowler对timwap_cn说: I tend to prefer the agile processes(2002/01/23 10:29)
fowler对timwap_cn说: It's better to err on something a little to lightweight(2002/01/23 10:29)
cntiger进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:30)
brian fan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:30)
wwabc对fowler说:do
es it is nessary to build business use case and use case in a project ?and what relation between them ?(2002/01/23 10:30)
mypine对fowler说: howdo
you think the UML?(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Remember what counts is to deliver software that's valuable to your customer(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: Keep your focus on that all the time(2002/01/23 10:30)
timwap_cn对fowler说: sorry , what i mean is how to put the concept into practise ?(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: And ensure that the internal quality of the software is high(2002/01/23 10:30)
unteo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:30)
fowler对timwap_cn说: So you can keep delivering at a good pace(2002/01/23 10:30)
gigix对fowler说: Would you please recommend one of your articles to Chinese developers? I'll be honor to translate and publish it.(2002/01/23 10:31)
fowler对wwabc说: Use cases are useful, but it's usually not necessary to have two kinds of use case(2002/01/23 10:31)
mypine对gigix说: hehe, ado
od idea!(2002/01/23 10:31)
fowler对wwabc说: For a longer (and better) answer I suggest Cockburn's book(2002/01/23 10:31)
fowler对gigix说: The best one that could use a Chinese translation is the one on Continuous Integration(2002/01/23 10:32)
cber离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:32)
tonymao进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:32)
gigix对fowler说: And the URL?(2002/01/23 10:32)
fowler对gigix说: Many of the articles have been translated into Japanese. Is that close enough, or is there a big difference between them?(2002/01/23 10:32)
mypine对fowler说: too comfess(2002/01/23 10:33)
mypine对fowler说: sorry, I send the error message!(2002/01/23 10:33)
simoncn对fowler说: like English Vs.Spanish(2002/01/23 10:33)
gigix对fowler说: There are very, very big difference. 99% Chinese can't read Japanese.(2002/01/23 10:33)
wwabc对fowler说: would tell me where I can find Cockburn's book in china ?thanks(2002/01/23 10:33)
fowler对gigix说: Thanks for letting me know(2002/01/23 10:33)
forrest_smiling进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:33)
fowler对gigix说: The continusous integration article is http://martinfowler.com/articles/continuousIntegration.html(2002/01/23 10:34)
gigix对fowler说: Thanks a lot!(2002/01/23 10:34)
simoncn对fowler说: so you authorize us to republish in Chinese(2002/01/23 10:34)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:34)
mypine对fowler说: I think the UML is not self-contained, so the grand old man like you should modify it,do
you?(2002/01/23 10:34)
fowler对gigix说: I have no problem with a translation. All I need is to retain copyright and a link to the original(2002/01/23 10:35)
fowler对mypine说: I think the UML is close enough(2002/01/23 10:35)
simoncn对大家说: UML is under OMG standard(2002/01/23 10:35)
fowler对mypine说: I wouldn't be interested in working on it any more(2002/01/23 10:35)
fowler对mypine说: I prefer to concentrate on patterns(2002/01/23 10:35)
yhufo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:35)
fl_xyg对fowler说: Sorry,Can you tell me detail about "In a one month iteration, two or three days on diagrams"(2002/01/23 10:36)
kenxia进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:36)
extreme进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:36)
extreme对fowler说: so what is a good resource for design patterns ?(2002/01/23 10:36)
gigix对fowler说: No problem. I introduced you at our magazine, lots of readers wish to read more from you.(2002/01/23 10:36)
mypine对fowler说: is the refactring one part of the patterns ?(2002/01/23 10:36)
fowler对fl_xyg说: If youdo
this then
roughly two days for a one month iteration is fine(2002/01/23 10:36)
fowler对fl_xyg说: Or you cando
the design work gradually over the iteration(2002/01/23 10:36)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:37)
fowler对fl_xyg说: XP likes todo
it gradually(2002/01/23 10:37)
fowler对extreme说: For patterns go to http://hillside.net/(2002/01/23 10:37)
extreme对fowler说: thanks.(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对mypine说: Refactoring is connected with patterns(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对mypine说: Patterns are often the targets of refactoring(2002/01/23 10:38)
yhufo对fowler说: why it is hard to Refactoring database application!(2002/01/23 10:38)
mypine对fowler说: I think the core of the pattern is seperate the metabolic and non-metabolic!(2002/01/23 10:38)
extreme对fowler说: i got it !(2002/01/23 10:38)
mypine对fowler说: yes,yes!(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对yhufo说: Because databases usuallydo
n't have encapsulation(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对yhufo说: Also the integration processes usually aren't very good(2002/01/23 10:38)
heey对fowler说: Is it important to use patterns on designing or programming?(2002/01/23 10:38)
mypine对fowler说: Patterns are often the targets of refactring!(2002/01/23 10:38)
fowler对yhufo说: And you have to migrate all the data, which takes time if you have a lot of data(2002/01/23 10:39)
hotheartqq进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:39)
越寒进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:39)
poirot进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:39)
mypine对fowler说: good parlance!(2002/01/23 10:39)
fowler对heey说: It's important to know about patterns(2002/01/23 10:39)
fowler对heey说: Youdo
n't need to use them all the time, but youdo
need to be aware of them(2002/01/23 10:39)
leoxy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:40)
kenxia进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:40)
mypine对fowler说: Mr. flower, How to start your refactring usually?(2002/01/23 10:40)
fowler对mypine说: I refactor whenever I'm working on some code and I see a bad smell(2002/01/23 10:40)
越寒对大家说: what shall todo
in embeded system test?(2002/01/23 10:41)
heey对fowler说: Yeah,it is the first thing before using it.(2002/01/23 10:41)
mypine对gigix说: hehe(2002/01/23 10:41)
shenborui进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:41)
mypine对fowler说: What's the bad smell?(2002/01/23 10:41)
blue_eyes进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:41)
yhufo对fowler说: how to find 'bad smell' in my source code!(2002/01/23 10:41)
george0cz进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:41)
poirot对fowler说: Mr. fowler,do
you think that XP is an anti-CMM process?(2002/01/23 10:41)
zhangxf进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
fowler对mypine说: I talk about bad smells in the refactoring book(2002/01/23 10:42)
fowler对mypine说: Duplicated code is a good example of a bad smell(2002/01/23 10:42)
wchenwu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
@悟空@进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
ehuayu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
xxzhu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:42)
gigix对大家说: “Bad Smell”是指不好的代码形式，在refactoring里面列出了21种，首当其冲的就是大类、长方法、重复代码。(2002/01/23 10:42)
shenborui对大家说: 哦，谢谢(2002/01/23 10:42)
fowler对poirot说: Many people in the agile community see CMM as very different to agile methods like XP(2002/01/23 10:43)
gigix对大家说: “Bad Smell”标志这这部分代码需要重构。(2002/01/23 10:43)
mypine对gigix说: Hello?(2002/01/23 10:43)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:43)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:43)
Charity_Zhou对fowler说: You mean a big class is bad smell,but in some system,it's really a big class composited by small classes(2002/01/23 10:43)
@悟空@进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:43)
extreme对fowler说: whatdo
you mean by "(2002/01/23 10:44)
fowler对Charity_Zhou说: Ido
n't see a composite as a big class - a composite is lots of little classes working together(2002/01/23 10:44)
kenxia对fowler说: Hi , fowler.do
you think the UML will kill the coder?(2002/01/23 10:44)
extreme对fowler说: agile commuinity " ?(2002/01/23 10:44)
ydm1979进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:44)
j2ee对大家说: The code lines of a class should less than 1500(2002/01/23 10:45)
fowler对extreme说: The agile community is those people who are interested in agile methods like XP, Scrum, FDD, etc(2002/01/23 10:45)
yhufo对fowler说: in xp wu use Refactoring to impove code,why not design first and write a good code once!(2002/01/23 10:45)
poirot对fowler说: Is XP very popular in U.S. compared to some heavy weight process.(2002/01/23 10:46)
fowler对yhufo说: It's too difficult to get a design completely right up front(2002/01/23 10:46)
fowler对yhufo说: Especially when requirements change(2002/01/23 10:46)
fowler对yhufo说: So you need a mix of up front design and refactoring(2002/01/23 10:46)
yhufo对fowler说: if Refactoring will slowdo
wn the system for more functions and subs!(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对poirot说: XP is still small (it's new) but it's growing(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对yhufo说: Lots of small classesdo
n't slow the systemdo
wn(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对yhufo说: Often they perform better in modern VMs(2002/01/23 10:47)
j2ee对fowler说: What is your opion on write the code and review it vs. write a little, test a little(2002/01/23 10:47)
fowler对yhufo说: If your profiling indicates you need to push things together, then
do
it.(2002/01/23 10:47)
shenborui对大家说: Mr.fowler , Can u give some advice of to make a good up front design ?(2002/01/23 10:48)
fowler对yhufo说: But only if the profiler shows a benefit(2002/01/23 10:48)
fowler对j2ee说: I certainly prefer write a litte, test a little(2002/01/23 10:48)
fowler对j2ee说: Actually I prefer test a little, write a little ;-)(2002/01/23 10:48)
unimap进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:49)
fowler对j2ee说: And design all the time(2002/01/23 10:49)
fowler对j2ee说: And design all the time(2002/01/23 10:49)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:49)
tensile对fowler说: how to improve the code's quality .(2002/01/23 10:49)
wwabc对fowler说: Mr. flowler,if the next edition of UML will be recommend ,what's new in that version ?(2002/01/23 10:49)
gigix对大家说: ( Mr. Fowler prefer to write test case at first.)(2002/01/23 10:49)
j2ee对fowler说: but someone told me that review is better than test(2002/01/23 10:49)
gigix对大家说: （首先编写测试，测试不能通过，然后再写代码，让测试通过。这是fowler先生比较喜欢的开发过程）(2002/01/23 10:50)
yhufo对fowler说: in china I can not find book <Refactoring> ,but I really want it ,if you can send me a e-book(2002/01/23 10:50)
fowler对tensile说: Simplest way to improve quality is to find and remove duplication(2002/01/23 10:50)
fowler对wwabc说: There aren't any big changes coming up in the UML (as far as I know)(2002/01/23 10:50)
mypine对fowler说: What proportion usually your test time and your coding time?((2002/01/23 10:50)
fowler对j2ee说: Review is good too, but if you test in small increments that works very well(2002/01/23 10:51)
fowler对j2ee说: Most people compare reviews to a lot of code followed by testing(2002/01/23 10:51)
mypine对fowler说: Howdo
you think the gloal method?(2002/01/23 10:51)
fowler对j2ee说: Small code/test cycles are quite different(2002/01/23 10:51)
forrest315进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:51)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:51)
fowler对mypine说: About even: testing and coding.(2002/01/23 10:52)
showway_li进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:52)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:52)
fowler对yhufo说: Sorry Ido
n't have ebooks for my books(2002/01/23 10:52)
poirot对fowler说: In XP, requirement is not stable, software is always changing,(2002/01/23 10:52)
poirot对fowler说:do
es it mean that there must be an very mechanism to track all this changes in XP(2002/01/23 10:52)
fowler对yhufo说: I belive you can get Refactoring in china, some here seem to have it(2002/01/23 10:52)
kenxia很高兴地对fowler说: youdo
n't think the designing is more important than test(2002/01/23 10:52)
fowler对poirot说: A simple mechanism is best. Otherwise people spend too much time on it.(2002/01/23 10:53)
crane_t进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:53)
fowler对kenxia说: Test First Design is a design technique(2002/01/23 10:53)
mypine对fowler说: Is the gloal method the bad smell?(2002/01/23 10:53)
fowler对kenxia说: It makes you think about your interfaces(2002/01/23 10:53)
fowler对kenxia说: And encourages you to keep your code well factored(2002/01/23 10:53)
wwabc对大家说:do
es anyone tell me what's mean of 'XP',thanks(2002/01/23 10:53)
helloliudan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:53)
mypine对wwabc说: 极端程序设计(2002/01/23 10:54)
mypine对wwabc说: Extreme Programming(2002/01/23 10:54)
fowler对wwabc说: XP is short hand for Extreme Programming, see xProgramming.com(2002/01/23 10:54)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:54)
fowler对mypine说: Whatdo
you mean by "gloal method"?(2002/01/23 10:54)
gigix对大家说: （我们现在将XP统一名称为“极限编程”）(2002/01/23 10:54)
yhufo对fowler说: what is the relation between 'design pattern' and 'analyze battern'(2002/01/23 10:55)
socoolliqiang进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:55)
fowler对yhufo说: Analysis patterns are patterns within thedo
main model of a system(2002/01/23 10:55)
gigix对fowler说: That's a term in C++. A global method is a method without any class.(2002/01/23 10:55)
crane_t对fowler说: hello Mr fowler(2002/01/23 10:55)
fowler对yhufo说: They talk about how to model certain commondo
main problems(2002/01/23 10:56)
mypine对fowler说: sorry, It should be "global method"!(2002/01/23 10:56)
fowler对yhufo说: Design patterns are about keeping flexibility in design(2002/01/23 10:56)
fowler对yhufo说: They apply at all points in software(2002/01/23 10:56)
poirot对fowler说: Mr. fowler,do
you think the test cases written before coding is a knid of semantic specification of class function which cannot be achieved by UML?(2002/01/23 10:56)
forrest315对fowler说:do
your mean wedo
n't need test by other people,programer is enough?(2002/01/23 10:56)
trybird进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:56)
helloliudan离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: You'll rarely need more than a few(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: But like most things, they are sometimes the right choice(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: A good C++ book should talk about this, but Ido
n'tdo
C++ any more(2002/01/23 10:57)
fowler对mypine说: There aren't any free functions in Java or C#(2002/01/23 10:57)
MikeNiu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对poirot说: Yes, that's a good way to think about it(2002/01/23 10:58)
mypine对fowler说: But there are a static keyboard in Java, it is mean global?(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对poirot说: It's a kind of design by contract by example(2002/01/23 10:58)
poirot对fowler说: Thank you!(2002/01/23 10:58)
extreme进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:58)
extreme对fowler说: in many software houses, we have a project manager, serveral developers and some so-called QA engineers, howdo
you like the organization of the project team ?(2002/01/23 10:58)
windy.j进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:58)
yhufo对fowler说: is that means Analysis pattern is about business logic,design about Software program logic?(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对mypine说: static in Java is same as static in C++ - a class method(2002/01/23 10:58)
fowler对yhufo说: That's a resonable way of thinking of it(2002/01/23 10:59)
extreme对fowler说: so, we can still get sort of GLOBAL function in java like that in C++.(2002/01/23 10:59)
mypine对fowler说: Oh, yes, it's can be accessed in the same package,but not ohter package!(2002/01/23 10:59)
fowler对extreme说: That's a common organization. It all depends how they work together(2002/01/23 10:59)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 10:59)
extreme对fowler说: e.g Math.ceil(...) etc.(2002/01/23 10:59)
gigix对fowler说: Mr. Fowler, windy.j likes your Analysis Patterns very much. She is the first one who translate them.(2002/01/23 11:00)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:00)
fowler对extreme说: The thing is static methods are always hosted on a class(2002/01/23 11:00)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: HI! Martin Fowler.We have long been looking forward to meeting you.You are famous upon the table.You are renowned in chinese developer, perhaps exceed in US.(2002/01/23 11:00)
xissy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:00)
fowler对windy.j说: Thank you fordo
ing the translation(2002/01/23 11:00)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:00)
shaojl进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:01)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: We are all known <Analysis Patterns>,<UML Distilled>,<Refatoring>,<Planning Extreme Programming> and www.martinfowler.com web site.(2002/01/23 11:01)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: With best wishes to you and your wife Cindy and your family!(2002/01/23 11:01)
windy.j对fowler说: Hello Mr.fowler, It's my pleasure.(2002/01/23 11:01)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: What is the difference between the analysis class diagram and the design class diagram?(2002/01/23 11:02)
xiao_xiao进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:02)
wchenwu微笑着对fowler说: I like the method of Refactoring, but it is very hard to practice for me.(2002/01/23 11:02)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: How is polymorphism different from overloading?(2002/01/23 11:02)
fowler对trybird说: Sadly different people use the words differently, so there isn't a single answer to that question(2002/01/23 11:02)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
j2ee对fowler说: When will you use other method than XP, for example RUP, TSP, and why?(2002/01/23 11:03)
sunroger进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
ydm1979进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
extreme对fowler说: Ido
n't think overloading has anything todo
with OO .(2002/01/23 11:03)
fowler对wchenwu说: Find good people to learn from(2002/01/23 11:03)
yhufo对fowler说: if we meet a newdo
main problem ,how me use Analysis pattern to settle this new problem!(2002/01/23 11:03)
tomsmart进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:03)
tomsmart对fowler说:do
es refractoring need matephor?(2002/01/23 11:03)
windy.j对fowler说: I'm looking forward to meeting you here, I feel the patterns you gave are very classical,but a little hard to grasp.
(2002/01/23 11:03)trybird微笑着对大家说: Haha!(2002/01/23 11:03)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:04)
tensile对大家说: when to use XP this method?(2002/01/23 11:04)
fowler对wchenwu说: In refactoring, start by focusing on the smells - particularly duplicate code(2002/01/23 11:04)
j2ee对fowler说: Can will practive Refactoring without unit test?(2002/01/23 11:04)
gigix对extreme说: But overloading gives your code more clarit(2002/01/23 11:04)
mypine对fowler说: I am poor in refactoring and pattern, can you commend some books to me?(2002/01/23 11:04)
fowler对j2ee说: I use the method that the team selects(2002/01/23 11:04)
越寒进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:04)
fowler对j2ee说: A team has to choose XP, you can't impose it(2002/01/23 11:05)
extreme对fowler说: yes, gigix.(2002/01/23 11:05)
fowler对yhufo说: Look to see if there is an analysis pattern connected yourdo
main probklem(2002/01/23 11:05)
fowler对yhufo说: If so try working with it(2002/01/23 11:05)
ydm1979对trybird说: overload + virtual equal polymorphism(2002/01/23 11:05)
lizl_hz进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:05)
fowler对yhufo说: It will never match 100%, but you should gain some insight from it(2002/01/23 11:06)
yhufo对fowler说:do
you know the refactoring tools for VB!(2002/01/23 11:06)
j2ee对fowler说: Howdo
deal with large team, there are many newbie, no enough gurus.(2002/01/23 11:06)
fowler对tomsmart说: Sorry I had refresh my screen, I lose red when Ido
that(2002/01/23 11:06)
extreme对大家说: whatdo
you mean by " overload + virtual ", ydm1979 ?(2002/01/23 11:06)
mypine对fowler说: Are there some tools for Delphi?(2002/01/23 11:06)
lzhihua进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:06)
mypine对fowler说: some factoring tools?(2002/01/23 11:06)
leoxy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
trybird微笑着对大家说: and what is the difference between the analysis class diagram and the design class diagram?(2002/01/23 11:07)
tomsmart对fowler说:do
es refractoring need matephor?(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对windy.j说: So I'm working on the ISA ones at the moment(2002/01/23 11:07)
mypine对extreme说: You should read an OOP book!(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对windy.j说: Maybe I'll get back to analysis patterns later(2002/01/23 11:07)
mouri进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
focusun进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对yhufo说: Ido
n't know of any VB refactoring tools yet(2002/01/23 11:07)
extreme对fowler说: as a programmer, what is your faviourite editor, java IDE, Mr. Fowlwer ?(2002/01/23 11:07)
heey进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:07)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:08)
heey对fowler说: Mr.Fowler,in terms of the system of telecom,like BOSS,which software development process will u choose? agile or XP?or something else
?(2002/01/23 11:07)
fowler对yhufo说: If Ido
, I'll post them on refactoring.com(2002/01/23 11:08)
shenborui对fowler说: Can u recommend some tools for refactoring (for java) ?(2002/01/23 11:08)
poirot对fowler说: Just the other day A India software Engineer told me that the position in software process like SEPG and SQA is boring,do
you think so?(2002/01/23 11:08)
fowler对mypine说: I alsodo
n't know of any Delphi refactoring tools, again I'll post on refactoring.com(2002/01/23 11:08)
mypine对fowler说: Are there some refactoring tools for Delphi?(2002/01/23 11:08)
zf_007进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:08)
fowler对shenborui说: I have a list of refactoring tools at www.refactoring.com(2002/01/23 11:08)
mypine离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:09)
fowler对shenborui说: There are several nice refactoring tools for Java(2002/01/23 11:09)
mypine进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:09)
simoncn进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:09)
simoncn对大家说: yeah, IDEAj(2002/01/23 11:09)
fowler对shenborui说: At the moment I use intellj (www.intellij.com) - which is a very nice IDE(2002/01/23 11:09)
lzhihua对大家说: what the bigest difference between rup and xp ?(2002/01/23 11:09)
shenborui对gigix说: ok(2002/01/23 11:09)
fowler对heey说: I'm afraid Ido
n'tdo
telecom, so I can't give good advice for it(2002/01/23 11:10)
windy.j对fowler说: Oh,we know that you are very busy. From the business experiences, to get the patterns ,It looks like the right way ,isn't it?(2002/01/23 11:10)
tensile对gigix说: what is the precise meaning of the refactoring ?(2002/01/23 11:10)
fowler对poirot说: Ido
n't know(2002/01/23 11:10)
fowler对poirot说: We have an indian office now, but we are using agile methods(2002/01/23 11:10)
tomsmart对fowler说: could I have you advice of the procedure for refratoring(2002/01/23 11:11)
fowler对lzhihua说: RUP is more of a process framework and is very complex(2002/01/23 11:11)
poirot对fowler说: how to prevent the tragedy of commons by "everyone owns the code" in XP?(2002/01/23 11:11)
windy.j对fowler说: thanks for your works and your answer
(2002/01/23 11:11)fowler对lzhihua说: XP is simpler and designed for particular kinds of projects(2002/01/23 11:11)
yhufo对fowler说: if we have any Analysis Pattern's Pattern.for we can create somedo
main'sAnalysis pattern by this pattern!(2002/01/23 11:11)
extreme对fowler说: maybe too complex. too manydo
cumentation which drive me crary(2002/01/23 11:11)
gigix对大家说: （Refactoring is the process of changing a software system in such a way that itdo
s not alter the external behavior of the code yet improves its internal structure.(2002/01/23 11:11)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP is very high discipline, so it takes effort to learn(2002/01/23 11:11)
ssimyili进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:11)
tensile进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:11)
yhufo对fowler说: I mean Pattern in Analysis Pattern(2002/01/23 11:12)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: What is the top-drawer in XP?(2002/01/23 11:12)
shenborui对大家说: sorry, where can i get <Analysis Pattern> in china ?(2002/01/23 11:12)
ssimyili离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:12)
fowler对windy.j说: I get my patterns by looking at what peopledo
(2002/01/23 11:12)
fowler对windy.j说: The ISA patterns come from looking at ThoughtWorks projects(2002/01/23 11:12)
lzhihua对fowler说: what is xp's soul ? refactoring?(2002/01/23 11:12)
tensile对gigix说: what is the exact Chinese meaning of refactoring?(2002/01/23 11:12)
xuegy进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:13)
mypine对fowler说: Mr.fowler, Thanks! Bye!(2002/01/23 11:13)
tensile对fowler说: what is the soul of refactoring?(2002/01/23 11:13)
fowler对gigix说: Yes, that's the definition(2002/01/23 11:13)
gzly2000进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:13)
gzly2000对大家说: hai(2002/01/23 11:13)
tensile对fowler说: thanx.(2002/01/23 11:14)
notions进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:14)
lzhihua对fowler说: can you describe the xp in one sentence , just like rupdo
?(2002/01/23 11:14)
fowler对lzhihua说: Ido
n't think you can really describe RUP in one sentance!(2002/01/23 11:14)
tensile对gigix说: windy.j,where can look ur translation?(2002/01/23 11:14)
trybird微笑着对fowler说: What is the top-drawer in XP?(2002/01/23 11:15)
fowler对lzhihua说: I would say XP is an agile process with a strong focus on technical practices.(2002/01/23 11:15)
tensile对gigix说: like c++.(2002/01/23 11:15)
tensile对windy.j说: hi, where can look at ur translation?(2002/01/23 11:16)
windy.j对fowler说: yes，I see,OK,I'll go to the thoughtworks' website to learn the ISA patterns, thank you for your guide.(2002/01/23 11:16)
trybird微笑着对umlchina说: Hi! Old Pan. Glad to meet you!(2002/01/23 11:16)
xiaolizhi168进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:16)
lzhihua对fowler说: rup say : architecture first , use case driven ,iterative develop . right ?(2002/01/23 11:16)
越寒对fowler说: can you describe how to verificate software reliability?(2002/01/23 11:16)
fowler对windy.j说: The ISA patterns are on my site: martinfowler.com(2002/01/23 11:16)
extreme对fowler说: Is there any real projectdo
cumentation created from a real XP projet team which we can reference ?(2002/01/23 11:16)
xissy离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:17)
trybird微笑着对gigix说: Hi!Glad to meet you too!(2002/01/23 11:17)
fowler对extreme说: Ido
n't know of anything publically available(2002/01/23 11:17)
windy.j对tensile说: in the xprogramer articles,cando
wnload from UmlChina(2002/01/23 11:17)
fowler对lzhihua说: Yes but thatdo
esn't say very much about RUPdo
es it?(2002/01/23 11:17)
trybird微笑着对大家说: Sorry! My Boss come!(2002/01/23 11:18)
tensile对gigix说: always turn off the line.(2002/01/23 11:18)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP is also architecture-centric, but encourages an evolving architecture(2002/01/23 11:18)
trybird微笑着对大家说: ****! Go away with me. Bye!(2002/01/23 11:18)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP is also more iterative than RUP, at least in practice(2002/01/23 11:18)
wwabc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:18)
trybird微笑着对大家说: I miss all of you! and Mr Fowler. bye!(2002/01/23 11:19)
trybird微笑着对大家说:
(2002/01/23 11:19)trybird离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:19)
crystal_y进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:19)
gigix对fowler说:do
you know AgileModeling? Howdo
you think about UML in agile process?(2002/01/23 11:19)
windy.j对fowler说: The new account patterns add more contents to the old ones, and sample codes in c++, that's very good.(2002/01/23 11:19)
wyvern进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对gigix说: I've been keeping an eye on Scott Ambler's work(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对gigix说: I think he has some good ideas(2002/01/23 11:20)
tensile对umlchina说: how to use XP to improve the efficiency ?(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对windy.j说: The new account patterns are much more like how I woulddo
analysis patterns now(2002/01/23 11:20)
fowler对windy.j说: (But the code is actually Java
(2002/01/23 11:20)lzhihua对fowler说: some one said that xp is a simple form of rup .do
you think so ?(2002/01/23 11:21)
fowler对tensile说: the efficiency of what?(2002/01/23 11:21)
yhufo进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:21)
yhufo对fowler说:do
you carray out xp in your company?(2002/01/23 11:21)
gigix对fowler说: And howdo
you think about Joshua Kerievsky's works? Are they valuable?(2002/01/23 11:22)
fowler对lzhihua说: You can say that. But since anything is a simple form of RUP itdo
esn't say much!(2002/01/23 11:22)
hugc进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:22)
gigix对fowler说: The "Refactorings to Patterns", I mean.(2002/01/23 11:22)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:22)
tensile对fowler说: the company's efficiency and the employee.(2002/01/23 11:22)
fowler对tensile说: We've seen the practices we've used improve our efficiency a lot(2002/01/23 11:23)
j2ee进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:23)
j2ee对fowler说: Can we use refactoring but we have not perform unit test very well?(2002/01/23 11:23)
fowler对tensile说:do
ing refactoring without tests is like a tightrope without a net(2002/01/23 11:23)
andrew.cheng离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:24)
fowler对tensile说: Rather you than me ;-)(2002/01/23 11:24)
fowler对tensile说: Whoops that was to J2EE, something slipped(2002/01/23 11:24)
tensile对fowler说: in my company the employee's efficiency is low.(2002/01/23 11:24)
tensile对fowler说: so my company want to execute CMM or other method.(2002/01/23 11:25)
ericxzhu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:25)
fowler对tensile说: If things are bad, then
CMM will probably help(2002/01/23 11:25)
ericxzhu进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:25)
fowler对tensile说: As long as the company concentrates on the process improvement, not getting to a particular level(2002/01/23 11:26)
yhufo对fowler说: what language you use for develop application!(2002/01/23 11:26)
lzhihua对fowler说: i want to import xp into our company . but it seem that it require the developer too much .(2002/01/23 11:26)
extreme对大家说: but CMM seems to be too complex.(2002/01/23 11:26)
@悟空@对fowler说: Mr. fowler, would you please tell me is there any relationship between xp and cmm(2002/01/23 11:26)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP needs the developers to want todo
it and have the discipline to learn it(2002/01/23 11:26)
extreme对fowler说: but CMM seems to be too complex(2002/01/23 11:26)
luofat进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:27)
gigix对fowler说: But 70% of Chinese software companies has less than 50 people. Is CMM the right selection for them?(2002/01/23 11:27)
tensile对fowler说: govement hope my company can pass CMM.(2002/01/23 11:27)
fowler对extreme说: CMMdo
es not have to be so complex, it depends how it'sdo
ne(2002/01/23 11:27)
Haides进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:27)
fowler对extreme说: Often it'sdo
ne in a way that makes it complex(2002/01/23 11:27)
fowler对gigix说: CMM isn't where I would start, but it's better than a bad companydo
ing nothing(2002/01/23 11:27)
poirot进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:27)
poirot对fowler说:do
you think XP will help a software company to achieve a high CMM level?(2002/01/23 11:27)
tensile对fowler说: but my company haven't specialties of CMM.(2002/01/23 11:28)
j2ee对fowler说: is xp method gennerally accepted by the software companies?(2002/01/23 11:28)
yhufo对fowler说: When we develop a large project we use rup,small one use xp?(2002/01/23 11:28)
hmsr进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:28)
windy.j对fowler说: It's hard to get classes modal from the use cases,would you please give us some advice in this?(2002/01/23 11:28)
tensile对fowler说: then
how todo
?(2002/01/23 11:28)
fowler对poirot说: see http://www.xpuniverse.com/XPandCMM.pdf(2002/01/23 11:28)
lzhihua对fowler说: you said that xp is a technical process. how about the management process in xp ?(2002/01/23 11:29)
fowler对j2ee说: XP is still very new, mainly for early adopters(2002/01/23 11:29)
poirot对fowler说: whatdo
you think of other agile processes besides XP?(2002/01/23 11:29)
tensile对fowler说: your advice?(2002/01/23 11:30)
fowler对yhufo说:do
n't try using XP on anything with more than 20 people until you've used it on smaller projects first(2002/01/23 11:30)
tensile对fowler说: my company have more than 100 men.(2002/01/23 11:30)
fowler对lzhihua说: XP has technical and management processes, but there's more detail on the technical(2002/01/23 11:30)
extreme对大家说: but you can have less 20 men in each project team(2002/01/23 11:31)
越寒对fowler说: pair programing can improve develope efficiency,and how todo
(2002/01/23 11:31)
fowler对gigix说: try this: http://www.xpuniverse.com/XPandCMM.pdf(2002/01/23 11:31)
windy.j对fowler说: That's the most difficult I ever felt, where there is no pattern for refference.(2002/01/23 11:31)
j2ee对fowler说: how will xp interact with project management? In another word, how to management a team that use XP.(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: Or better still: http://www.google.com/search?q=paulk+xp(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: Thank you for having me(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: I've enjoyed the chat(2002/01/23 11:32)
fowler对gigix说: I hope to see you in China someday(2002/01/23 11:32)
lzhihua对fowler说:do
you think xp need a stable architecture first ?(2002/01/23 11:32)
brian fan进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:32)
hard64进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:32)
hard64对fowler说: can we carry out XP and RUP in a company in parallel?(2002/01/23 11:32)
tensile对gigix说: how todo
in my company?(2002/01/23 11:32)
tensile对fowler说: thanx.(2002/01/23 11:33)
extreme对fowler说: thanks Mr. Fowler.(2002/01/23 11:33)
umlchina对fowler说: Thank you Mr fowler(2002/01/23 11:33)
poirot对fowler说: Thank you very much.(2002/01/23 11:33)
panjet进入聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:33)
panjet对fowler说: Mr Fowler,Welcome to china!(2002/01/23 11:33)
shenqw对fowler说: Thanks.(2002/01/23 11:33)
umlchina对fowler说: Good night(2002/01/23 11:33)
yhufo对fowler说: Thank you very much(2002/01/23 11:33)
wchenwu微笑着对fowler说: thanks(2002/01/23 11:33)
windy.j对fowler说: thank you sir,you are very welcome here!(2002/01/23 11:33)
wyvern对fowler说: thanks(2002/01/23 11:34)
gigix对fowler说: I'll mail you after a while. Good night.(2002/01/23 11:34)
lzhihua对fowler说: wanna to meet you again(2002/01/23 11:34)
j2ee对fowler说: Thanks very very much. I hope to see you and learn from you in future(2002/01/23 11:34)
fowler离开了聊天室.(2002/01/23 11:34)