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UMLChina第十三期专家交流实录
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北京时间2002年1月10日（星期四）晚上21:30-23:30
嘉宾：Roser S．Pressman博士是软件工程领域国际知名的咨询专家和作者，R.S. Pressman &
Associates, Inc的创始人，已有超过30年的产业经验，主要从事工程产品软件和系统软件的开发技术工作和管理工作。 作为产业的实践者和管理者，Pressman博土主要从事的是航空航天应用中高级工程和制造的CAD/CAM系统的开发，他也从事科学及系统程序设计方面的工作。 除了他的产业经验之外，Pressman博士还是BridgePort大学计算机工程系的兼职教授和该大学的计算机辅助设计和制造中心的主任。 Pressman博士是杂志American Programmer（美国程序员）和 IEEE Software（IEEE软件）的编委，是IEEE Software的Manager（管理员）专栏的编辑。他还是ACM、IEEE、Tau Beta Pi、 Phi Kappa Phi、Eta Kappa Nu和Pi Tau Sigma的会员。
Pressman博士著有6本书籍，其中最著名的是已经发行了20多年的“Software Engineering: A Practitioner's Approach”，此书被全世界广泛使用为软件工程教材，最新版为第五版。第五版影印本由清华大学出版社发行，第四版中文译本“软件工程--实践者的研究方法”由机械工业出版社发行。
交流重点：软件工程，软件过程改进...
主持人：钱五哥
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
以往聊天实录
http://www.umlchina.com/Chat/Newindex1.htm
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现场图片
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rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:21)
csliuyb对大家说: hello roger(2002/01/10 21:22)
seeseax对大家说: not as many persons as I imagine(2002/01/10 21:22)
rogerpressman对大家说: Hello all. I'm a little early!(2002/01/10 21:22)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Hello! R U the one we are waiting for?(2002/01/10 21:22)
umlchina对大家说: hello(2002/01/10 21:22)
umlchina对大家说: hello(2002/01/10 21:23)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾到了(2002/01/10 21:23)
brook0344对大家说: Ido
not get anything to ask,i just want to get some useful idea(2002/01/10 21:23)
umlchina对大家说: 大家欢迎(2002/01/10 21:23)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: hello!(2002/01/10 21:23)
seeseax对大家说: welcome so much!!(2002/01/10 21:23)
goaha进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:23)
luv对大家说: hello Master(2002/01/10 21:23)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: How are you, Dr. Pressman?(2002/01/10 21:23)
mhuang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:23)
brook0344对大家说: anybody the same as me?(2002/01/10 21:23)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:24)
h_gaofeng对大家说: hello,rogerpressman(2002/01/10 21:24)
javaor进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:24)
brook0344对大家说: hello,master(2002/01/10 21:25)
oysterlqd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:25)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sorry, My server is acting strangly.do
you know what Murphy's law is
(2002/01/10 21:25)
siltboy进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:25)
rogerpressman对大家说:do
es anyone have any question of software engineering?(2002/01/10 21:25)
mhuang对大家说: hello everybody(2002/01/10 21:25)
csliuyb对大家说: Dr Pressman, In your opinion, what is the relationship between programing and software engineering?(2002/01/10 21:26)
seeseax微笑着对rogerpressman说: could u please explain(2002/01/10 21:26)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:26)
xuefg对大家说: good night!(2002/01/10 21:26)
h_gaofeng对xuefg说: who are you(2002/01/10 21:26)
mhuang对csliuyb说: maby is is a big topic(2002/01/10 21:27)
xuefg对大家说: i am a programmer(2002/01/10 21:27)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about XP?(2002/01/10 21:27)
csliuyb对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman, In your opinion, what is the relationship between programing and software engineering?(2002/01/10 21:27)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:27)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
derta进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
tsino进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:29)
h_gaofeng对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about RUP and CMM?(2002/01/10 21:29)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾链接有问题，稍等(2002/01/10 21:29)
hyuan66进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:29)
siltboy对umlchina说: I can't say anthing.(2002/01/10 21:29)
rogerpressman对大家说: SE is a discipline that requires a process. Programming is a bit less formal. Both work to accomplish the same thing.(2002/01/10 21:29)
siltboy对umlchina说: sorry,it works.(2002/01/10 21:29)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:30)
skyoldx离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:30)
skyoldx进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:30)
rogerpressman对大家说: Any process model (and the related methods to assess maturity are worthwhile. However, it is important to note that process can be overkill. Every organization must choos(2002/01/10 21:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about XP?((2002/01/10 21:31)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:31)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: eXtreme Programming(2002/01/10 21:31)
rogerpressman对大家说: XP is an excellent idea, but it is NOT a replacement for SE discipline. It is a variant of SE, in my opinion.(2002/01/10 21:31)
zydedueast进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:31)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:32)
h_gaofeng对rogerpressman说: If wedo
n't make request clear,but manager order we must begin
to design and code,whatdo
wedo
?(2002/01/10 21:32)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: how to choose an appropriate process model?(2002/01/10 21:32)
anon进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:32)
atlas_tao对rogerpressman说: what's the position of COM in SE?(2002/01/10 21:32)
tsino离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:32)
brook0344对大家说: yeah,It's not so formal as se(2002/01/10 21:32)
umlchina对大家说: 提问用蓝色(2002/01/10 21:32)
rogerpressman对大家说: You must understand requirements, but there are many ways todo
this. One is to prototype. that satisfied the manager, but also gets you info(2002/01/10 21:33)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:33)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.Do you think J2EE is better than .NET in MIS(2002/01/10 21:33)
vickyday离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:33)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: how to choose an appropriate process model for a team or a project?(2002/01/10 21:33)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:33)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:34)
netd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:34)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Could you give us some direction about software size estimate?(2002/01/10 21:34)
wenjiamin进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:34)
rogerpressman对大家说: Choosing the right process model requires a knowledge of the people on the team, the nature of the project and many other factors. Visit http://www.rspa.com/apm(2002/01/10 21:34)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: I have a fact question. A is a class,B is anther.But A is used in B's funciton.How to describe the relation?(2002/01/10 21:34)
qlw5对大家说: helloe everyone, sorry for my late(2002/01/10 21:34)
h_gaofeng对rogerpressman说: When we begin
to program,we should get rid off prototype or not?(2002/01/10 21:34)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Could you give us some direction about software size estimate?(2002/01/10 21:34)
openeyes进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:35)
liuzhiming进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:35)
zhangqike进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:35)
rogerpressman对大家说: Software size: There are two approaches. One is LOC counting. Today, this is widely used bu suspect.(2002/01/10 21:35)
rogerpressman对大家说: The other is FP. This is not easily applied in engineering-type apps, but can be useful in IT apps(2002/01/10 21:36)
qlw5对大家说: dear rogerpressman, whatdo
es suspect mean?(2002/01/10 21:36)
zik进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:36)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:36)
xuefg微笑着对qlw5说: 请问你的主页没有了吗？我怎么上不去？(2002/01/10 21:36)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: But how to estimate more effectively?(2002/01/10 21:36)
xchyj进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:37)
qlw5对大家说: 主页依然存在,不过服务器限制了IP(2002/01/10 21:37)
rogerpressman对大家说: ISuspect means that it's difficult to determine what a LOC is in many modern languages (e.g., visula app development). However, it can be used effectively, if proper conv(2002/01/10 21:37)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: What’s the next generation UML, what's new it will bring to us?(2002/01/10 21:37)
rogerpressman对大家说: To estimate effectively, you must develop estimates in more than one way. You then
reconcile the different estimates.(2002/01/10 21:37)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:38)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: We are using DELphi method to make the results more creditable(2002/01/10 21:38)
sun221进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:38)
xuefg微笑着对qlw5说: 怎么上？(2002/01/10 21:38)
qlw5对大家说: [to jameshwoo]我不是今天的guest,不过希望你课程和实践结合紧密(2002/01/10 21:38)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: But FP sounds like too delicate and complex(2002/01/10 21:38)
rogerpressman对大家说: UML is an important analysis and design approach. Altho it's used in may placed, there are many more SEs whodo
not use it at all. Before we worry about the next generati(2002/01/10 21:38)
goldarcher进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:39)
rogerpressman对大家说: Before we worry about the next generation, I'd like to see widerusage of the current model(2002/01/10 21:39)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: I am reading your book <<Software Engineering>> 5th,any advice about your book?(2002/01/10 21:39)
rogerpressman对大家说: Re my book: it's very long. Pick and choose the info you need. Also visit the web site.(2002/01/10 21:40)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:40)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:40)
xuefg微笑着对rogerpressman说: how are you thank about cmm?(2002/01/10 21:40)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说:do
you think a person mainly having mechanical engineering background may become a good software engineering professional?(2002/01/10 21:40)
rogerpressman对大家说: The CMM is a worthwhile process model, but it is NOT a religion. You must apply it with common sense.(2002/01/10 21:41)
zik对rogerpressman说: How about Rational Unified Process?(2002/01/10 21:41)
vickyday对rogerpressman说:do
u think the tools developed by Rational willdo
great help to the engineering of the process?(2002/01/10 21:41)
qlw5对大家说: Dear jameshwoo,do
yo uthink CMM is applicable for most project, which project type is the most suitable?(2002/01/10 21:42)
rogerpressman对大家说: Many year ago, as a young man, my first engineering degree was in ME. What a coincidence!!(2002/01/10 21:42)
y_z进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:42)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think test in software engineering? and now ,whatdo
the American Companies test their product?(2002/01/10 21:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: The CMM is applicable to all projects. However, it may be overkill for some rapid response projects and smaller projects(2002/01/10 21:43)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: I think testing is very important in future.(2002/01/10 21:43)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman,do
you think new project can use CMM Model?(2002/01/10 21:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: Testing is the weakest of all SE disciplines, yet is is the activity that absorbs the most time. We need good strategies and very good tactics.(2002/01/10 21:44)
netd对rogerpressman说:do
you think software engineering really can solve the problem of software?(2002/01/10 21:44)
longzhifang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:44)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: sorry, Ido
not know who is jameshwoo?(2002/01/10 21:44)
rogerpressman对大家说: A new project can use the CMM model.(2002/01/10 21:44)
vickyday对rogerpressman说:do
u think the tools developed by Rational willdo
great help to the engineering of the process?(2002/01/10 21:44)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Now,Ido
n't know how todo
a good thing in OOT.(2002/01/10 21:45)
xuefg微笑着对rogerpressman说: now can i thank that CMM is not suit smaller projects?(2002/01/10 21:45)
siltboy进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:45)
detective进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:45)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:45)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: however Ido
not think pure new project can use CMM, the reason it that it is not repeatable?(2002/01/10 21:45)
rogerpressman对大家说: Rational tools are extremely useful. The add to the SEs insight. But it is more important the the SE himself/herself understand good practices.(2002/01/10 21:45)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Can you give some advices?(2002/01/10 21:45)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Can you give some advices in OO Testing?(2002/01/10 21:46)
mhuang对大家说: howdo
you think about the importance regarding a architecture or infrastructure to an application development?(2002/01/10 21:46)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:47)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: Accoding to Jacobson's talking,in the future the analysis will take the larest part of the whole process ,how about ur think?(2002/01/10 21:47)
rogerpressman对大家说: OO testing is different than conventional testing. See my book, chapter 23 for a complete discussion.(2002/01/10 21:47)
sun221进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:47)
brook0344对大家说: hi,whatdo
es the key "smaller projects" in your opinion?(2002/01/10 21:47)
brook0344对大家说: mean?(2002/01/10 21:47)
atlas_tao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:47)
atlas_tao对rogerpressman说: Whatdo
you think about MS COM?(2002/01/10 21:47)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: And I can't get difference of OO Intergration Test and Unit Test. Howdo
you think?(2002/01/10 21:47)
rogerpressman对大家说: Architecture has become one of the most important design ideas. Infrastruture depends on good architecture.(2002/01/10 21:48)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: the same as RUP says?(2002/01/10 21:48)
csliuyb对大家说: Could you tell me what kind of aspectsdo
es the SE research efforts interested in now?(2002/01/10 21:48)
jeffray进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:49)
rogerpressman对大家说: In general "Smaller projects" involve 2 - 3 people for no more than 1 to 2 months and are NOT business critical.(2002/01/10 21:49)
oldblue进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:49)
netd对rogerpressman说: Whatdo
se Infrastructure means? Can you give me an example to explain the difference of infrastructure and architecture?(2002/01/10 21:49)
brook0344对大家说: 好的(2002/01/10 21:49)
rogerpressman对大家说: You question on OO testing are good one, but are beyond the scope of a chat. See my book, where your question is answered.(2002/01/10 21:50)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, By my experience, I found out that although CMM is a general approach, it is actually based on waterfall lifecycle model, what is your opinion?(2002/01/10 21:50)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:50)
rogerpressman对大家说: Stated very simply, architecture describes the relationship among processing and data components in a system, how they communicate and how they interact.(2002/01/10 21:50)
jeffray对大家说: hi I am coming(2002/01/10 21:51)
mhuang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:51)
mhuang对大家说: will you use a free and open source infrastructure in your project?(2002/01/10 21:51)
rogerpressman对大家说: Infrastructure defines the support systems that enable the software to work (e.g., operation systems, external components, etc.(2002/01/10 21:51)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Thank you very much!(2002/01/10 21:51)
liyajia129进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:52)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: Dear Pressman,do
you have any opinion on educating of software engineering, especially in china?(2002/01/10 21:52)
rogerpressman对大家说: Ido
n't agree that the CMMis based on the waterfall. It defines those aspects of process that should exist in every software organization.(2002/01/10 21:52)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:52)
jeffray对rogerpressman说: hi ,I am one of your older readers(2002/01/10 21:52)
csliuyb对大家说: Could you tell me what kind of aspectsdo
es the SE research efforts interested in now?(2002/01/10 21:53)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about PSP (personal software process)?(2002/01/10 21:53)
rogerpressman对大家说: SE education is always a challengfe. It is important to get a good background in computer science, to get pactical experience, and to learn how to work as a team.(2002/01/10 21:53)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: a question about LINUX,how about your think of LINUX to used in important server,such as DB server(2002/01/10 21:54)
y_z对rogerpressman说: Is Rational tools good at real time area?(2002/01/10 21:54)
rogerpressman对大家说: Humphrey's work on PSP and TSP are excellent. Ido
believe however, that a great amount of effort (by the SE) are required to apply PSP properly.(2002/01/10 21:54)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.How can ado
main professioner to be helpful to SE?Use UML?any advise is expected.(2002/01/10 21:54)
rogerpressman对大家说: If the efort is applied, the results are very good.(2002/01/10 21:54)
jeffray对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about extreme programming(XP)?(2002/01/10 21:55)
siltboy对rogerpressman说:do
you think the software reuse is related with software complex ?(2002/01/10 21:55)
rogerpressman对大家说: SE research today focuses on componet-based development, formal methods and many other areas.(2002/01/10 21:55)
liyajia129进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:55)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: I agree with you, but CMM need plans, but plans is only applicable while the projectdo
not change often(2002/01/10 21:55)
liyajia129对rogerpressman说: a question about RUP ?(2002/01/10 21:55)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:56)
csliuyb对大家说: but as post graduate students just finished 4 years of studying, how can they gether the experience?(2002/01/10 21:56)
sun221进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:56)
rogerpressman对大家说: CMM implies that planning is necessary, but thatdo
esn't mean that we can't change the plans as we learn more.(2002/01/10 21:56)
forestinnorway进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:57)
jameshwoo对csliuyb说: I agree with you.(2002/01/10 21:57)
wenjiamin进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:57)
wenjiamin对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about XP and RUP?(2002/01/10 21:57)
rogerpressman对大家说: Software resue should REDUCE software complexity. However, this assume that the resuable compoents are well designed, well tested and appropriate for the project.(2002/01/10 21:57)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:57)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: I think SE is quite a practical subject.If I want to pusue my study in USA for SE, could u give me some advice?(2002/01/10 21:57)
y_z对rogerpressman说: Is Rational tools good at real time area? Or Rhapsody is better.(2002/01/10 21:57)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Too many changes means that we need aonther plan, which implies a new development model, CMM is developmented 10 years ago, why we must use it?(2002/01/10 21:58)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: all of us know LINUX is maintanced by people all around the world, how about this model of software development(2002/01/10 21:58)
rogerpressman对大家说: There are many universities in the USA that have SE curricula. Use the internet to find those that have programs of interest.(2002/01/10 21:58)
wenjiamin对rogerpressman说: I think XP is equal to confusion ,and you ?(2002/01/10 21:59)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Charity_Zhou, you can find many development model in the internet, the SCM is strong inside the open source development(2002/01/10 21:59)
jameshwoo对大家说: also care about MIT's action.(2002/01/10 21:59)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: I never said that you MUST use the CMM. What you shoulddo
is to apply the spirit of the CMM and adapt it to build a process that is right for your company.(2002/01/10 22:00)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:00)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: If u r the professor, what would u expect for me to be ur student? If I have CS background and some working experience for SE, is that OK?(2002/01/10 22:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: If XP is used to avoid discipline, I agree that it can cause confustion. However, if XP is used in a disciplined manner it can be quite effective.(2002/01/10 22:00)
wenjiamin进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: I particularly like the pair programming concept in XP.(2002/01/10 22:01)
vickyday对jameshwoo说: Whatdo
u mean as MIT's action?(2002/01/10 22:01)
overflight进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:01)
jameshwoo对大家说: Open Course Library Plan.(2002/01/10 22:01)
rogerpressman对大家说: I'm no long a professor, but I was one for a long time. I expected hard work and good thinking from all my students.(2002/01/10 22:01)
liyajia129进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:01)
docsa进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:02)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:02)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:02)
fcx123对rogerpressman说: the smallest one only have 12 developers.do
you think it is departure of CMM's creator original intention?(2002/01/10 22:02)
fcx123对rogerpressman说: We know, CMM theory are very important to large software enterprises! But as I know, in the software enterprises which ware certified CMM level 2 or above,(2002/01/10 22:02)
jameshwoo对大家说: hard work and good thinking, I agree.(2002/01/10 22:02)
derta对rogerpressman说: Hi,Whatdo
u think about the software development?Are there some good or mixed patterns for SE?(2002/01/10 22:02)
derta对rogerpressman说: Will it go some extremes? One hand,big companies leading,such as IBM;another hand, open source code prggramming,such as something for Linux.(2002/01/10 22:03)
caozq进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, I know clearly that CMM is based upon practices, however SW-CMM v1.1 is about 10 years old, although the spirit is still there, the practice has been(2002/01/10 22:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: changed(2002/01/10 22:03)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:04)
vickyday对qlw5说: But the general principles wont change.(2002/01/10 22:04)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear jameshwoo, whatdo
you mean the pattern?(2002/01/10 22:04)
rogerpressman对大家说: Lots of questions I get the impression that the CMM is a very "hot" topic in China. Remeber that the CMM is not a religion to be applieddo
gmatically.(2002/01/10 22:05)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: vickyday, no Ido
not think you know about CMM(2002/01/10 22:05)
jameshwoo对vickyday说: They Press their main Course Material to internet. (www.MIT.edu)(2002/01/10 22:05)
rogerpressman对大家说: It is a phiosophy that can be adapted to meet your needs.(2002/01/10 22:05)
Charity_Zhou离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:05)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:05)
greatfox进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:05)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
rogerpressman对大家说: The fact that the CMM is 10+ years olddo
es not invalidate it as a worthwhile philosophy.(2002/01/10 22:06)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
csliuyb对大家说: Dr, pressman, If u r the professor, what knowledge would u expect your student have? or rather what kind of courses they should learn first? as a post graduate student(2002/01/10 22:06)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: General questions on CMM, you can refer to me, I have some experience on CMM(2002/01/10 22:06)
fsbat进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: I am reading Dr.Humphrey's book on PSP, but seems few SE's around usdo
it,do
you have any advice on such situation?any advice on applying PSP and TSP?(2002/01/10 22:06)
xujnfeng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
vickyday对qlw5说: Yes Ido
nt know all of them. But as far as the KPAs we are applying, I think they are useful and wont be outdated.(2002/01/10 22:06)
stoic进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:07)
rogerpressman对大家说: As I mentions PSP and TSP require formal training and then
the discipline to apply the methods. It is also not being used widley in the USA. laziness, I think.(2002/01/10 22:07)
vickyday对qlw5说: Because CMMdo
esnt tell how todo
, but set the aim U must achieve.(2002/01/10 22:07)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear, rogerpressman, but someone, maybe DeMacro or High SmithIIIdo
not agree with CMM, they think CMM is burden to progress, what;s your oppion?(2002/01/10 22:07)
xujnfeng离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:07)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Hi,Dr Pressman.What team or team leader is your expected.(2002/01/10 22:09)
rogerpressman对大家说: Also DeMarco and Highsmith are both friends, I disagree. The CMM is a burden only if it is applied thoughtlessly. If its spirit is applied with commn sense, it can assist(2002/01/10 22:09)
rogerpressman对大家说: It can assist an organization indo
ing good SE work.(2002/01/10 22:09)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:09)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:10)
rogerpressman对大家说: There is an excellent book on Team Leadership by Jerry Weinberg. Title On Becoming a Technical Leader. I recommend it.(2002/01/10 22:10)
atlas_tao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:11)
atlas_tao对rogerpressman说: what's the position of MS COM in SE?(2002/01/10 22:11)
mhuang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:12)
mhuang对大家说: where can we get it?(2002/01/10 22:12)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: Dr. Pressman, you are in a software design team nowadays?(2002/01/10 22:12)
rogerpressman对大家说: MS COM is one of a number of component-based technologies for SE. All attempts to achieve reuse will benefit an organization, as long as good architectural design isdo
ne(2002/01/10 22:12)
greatfox对rogerpressman说: how about you think of msf?(2002/01/10 22:13)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, I think things are changing, for example, Criticle Computer resource are NEVER a KP in CMMI 1.02, while is a KP in SW CMM v 1.1 L2 wht's your opinion(2002/01/10 22:13)
rogerpressman对大家说: Thing are changing. They alwaysdo
. It's reasonable to assume that as the CMMI evolved, there will be changes from the oder CMM. Thatdo
es not invalidate older ideas, it(2002/01/10 22:15)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: what kind of method is suitable for a small~middle project, no business critical, mainly for research and interests ?(2002/01/10 22:15)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:15)
rogerpressman对大家说: It simply means that we learned from past experience and have modified our approach.(2002/01/10 22:15)
atlas_tao对大家说:do
es the architecture design + component-based technologies can achieve success?(2002/01/10 22:15)
brook0344对大家说: sa China has been a country in WTO,What position will American software be on in China,tommorrow?(2002/01/10 22:15)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:16)
vickyday对大家说: What should we learn from the Model? The methodology or all the details?(2002/01/10 22:16)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Thanks, rogerpressman, Can you tell me why CMMI is still not a offcial version?(2002/01/10 22:16)
zik进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:16)
rogerpressman对大家说: Altho I have a high bandwidth connection, my repsonse time is degrading. Not sure why. Please understand delayed responses.(2002/01/10 22:16)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:18)
csliuyb对rogerpressman说: what kind of method is suitable for a small~middle project, no business critical, mainly for research and interests ?((2002/01/10 22:18)
john long进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:18)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman,do
not feel so aggressive(2002/01/10 22:18)
netd对rogerpressman说: I think SE just can REDUCE rather than SOLVE the problems in software development, howdo
you think about that?(2002/01/10 22:18)
vickyday对大家说: The system is abnormal I think.(2002/01/10 22:18)
csliuyb对大家说:
(2002/01/10 22:19)
qlw5对大家说: To my opinion, For small Org. the XP is much better than CMM(2002/01/10 22:19)
rogerpressman对大家说: I agree. SE is not a silver bullet. It reduces the problems of software development, it cannot completely eliminate them.(2002/01/10 22:19)
lf168进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:19)
john long微笑着对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, nice to meet you(2002/01/10 22:19)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:19)
fcx123对rogerpressman说: there many good open source about framework of CORBA,ACE+TAO is one of the best frameworks. Can you give us some others ? And how I choose from them?(2002/01/10 22:19)
fsbat离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:20)
huhj_uml离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:20)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:20)
rogerpressman对大家说: Why not combine the best proactices of XP with CMM ideas. Therefore you get good responsiveness and creativity and good quality and discipline.(2002/01/10 22:20)
qlw5对大家说: Dear netd, SE can only solve the problem when there are more support than Finite state machine(2002/01/10 22:21)
goaha离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:21)
netd对rogerpressman说: So is there any ways to completely eliminate the problems?(2002/01/10 22:21)
qlw5对大家说: XP + CMM + adaptive software development is probably a kind of wonderful approach(2002/01/10 22:22)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Software is powerful today!What is the future of SE?Maybe the end user can customer software NOT the engineer.(2002/01/10 22:22)
john long微笑着对大家说: what's the most important thing in Object Oriented Software(2002/01/10 22:23)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sadly, buiding complex systems is difficult. Ido
not believe we will ever completely eliminate the problems. If we did, none of us would have jobs)(2002/01/10 22:23)
coolie2k进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:23)
forestinnorway离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:23)
rogerpressman对大家说: End user computing is good for some things, but SEs will be the ones to build complex systems.(2002/01/10 22:23)
qlw5对大家说: Dear fcx123, ACE+TAO is a good solution, but have you really understand it?(2002/01/10 22:23)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: wonderfull.(2002/01/10 22:23)
skyoldx进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:23)
skyoldx对大家说: what kind of method is suitable for a small~middle project, no business critical, mainly for research and interests(2002/01/10 22:23)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:24)
fcx123对qlw5说: Not Yet!(2002/01/10 22:24)
atlas_tao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:24)
atlas_tao对大家说: which approach will be selected to solve low-level project?(2002/01/10 22:24)
rogerpressman对大家说: Shyoldx: It sounds like an evolutionary process model would be best. The methods depend on the application type and the tools available to you.(2002/01/10 22:24)
qlw5对大家说: Dear fcx123, I just read some part of the code, I found it is one the open src prj with gododo
c.(2002/01/10 22:25)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
brook0344对大家说: HI，问一下，我们这次讨论有一个主题的吗(2002/01/10 22:25)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
rogerpressman对大家说: The most important aspect of OO is to understand the concept of the class and to build meaningful class hierarchies for the problem to be soleved.(2002/01/10 22:25)
csliuyb对rogerpressman说: What is the future development of SE?(2002/01/10 22:25)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
u expect for the industrialization of the Software industry? And what's ur oppion about the role of the SE professionals?(2002/01/10 22:25)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
u expect for the industrialization of the Software industry? And what's ur oppion about the role of the SE professionals?(2002/01/10 22:26)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, howdo
you think the role-based process man. approach rather than activity-based?(2002/01/10 22:26)
rogerpressman对大家说: Many years ago, people talked about "software factories. SE is a human endeavor. It's unliley that it will be "industrialized" any time soon.(2002/01/10 22:26)
fcx123对qlw5说: I hope to use it in my network management system.(2002/01/10 22:26)
dearlan进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:27)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: Ido
n't liker to make those distinctions. Activities must be assigned and roles must be played for effective management. I like both(2002/01/10 22:27)
fcx123对qlw5说: Can you give me some advices about that?(2002/01/10 22:27)
qlw5对大家说: It's major a Corba sys, which can across OS platform(2002/01/10 22:27)
qlw5对大家说: I currently rading a book by Highsmith, it say that WBS can never used in new complex project, why?(2002/01/10 22:28)
luv离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:29)
yin_feng对qlw5说: what is wbs?(2002/01/10 22:29)
vickyday对qlw5说: Maybe for the inovince of the system, U can hardly develop the WBS properly(2002/01/10 22:29)
john long进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:30)
john long微笑着对大家说: sorry ,Dear rogerpressman,I means OOST,In fact, In my company,we are in the primary moment of Object Oriented Software Test,Anddo
you have some wonderful advice for me ?(2002/01/10 22:30)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, I think CMM v 1.1 will be replaced be by CMMi 1.02 technically, butdo
Ddo
not want CMMi, right?(2002/01/10 22:30)
vickyday对大家说: yin_feng:Work Breakdown Structure(2002/01/10 22:30)
qlw5对大家说: Work breakdown structure(2002/01/10 22:30)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:31)
fcx123对qlw5说: I will contact with you later,Ok?(2002/01/10 22:31)
qlw5对大家说: Dear vickyday, WBS is derived by experienced team(2002/01/10 22:31)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:31)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sadly, OOST is beyond the scope of this chat. There are a number of good books that have come out recently, Check amazon.com or other sources.(2002/01/10 22:31)
vickyday对大家说: Dear qlw, u just now mentioned the project is new and complex.(2002/01/10 22:32)
rogerpressman对大家说: Ido
nt agree with highsmith on that, His contention is that all projects must be adaptible and that a WBS is not adaptible.(2002/01/10 22:32)
kenjiang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:33)
brook0344对大家说: HI，请问这次讨论的主题是什么？(2002/01/10 22:33)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, Thanks(2002/01/10 22:33)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about UXF (UML eXchange Format ), will it benifit interoperability much as expected?(2002/01/10 22:33)
rogerpressman对大家说: I disagree. You can create a WBS and then
adapt it as the project progresses. Without it, you have no reasonable raodmap.(2002/01/10 22:33)
qlw5对大家说: brook0344, on software process(2002/01/10 22:33)
brook0344对大家说: 哦，知道了(2002/01/10 22:34)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
csliuyb对大家说: 了解了(2002/01/10 22:35)
rogerpressman对大家说: UXF will help. but first, we ned to have more people and organizations using UML on a regular basis.(2002/01/10 22:35)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, However if the requirement are changing much, a static WBS will never be applicable(2002/01/10 22:35)
john long进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
john long微笑着对大家说: oh, My God, Dear rogerpressman,do
you think that I can buy a book of OOST from amazon.com? In fact I can't for I have nodo
llar,and any e-books?(2002/01/10 22:35)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
csliuyb对大家说:(2002/01/10 22:35)
javaor进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: I agree. But there is no need for a Static WBS. It can adapt as requirements and the project changes.(2002/01/10 22:36)
oysterlqd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
oysterlqd对大家说: yap,e-books,hoho(2002/01/10 22:36)
luxf001进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman,do
u think CMM can be used in small projects less than 6 people, and less than 6 months?(2002/01/10 22:36)
rogerpressman对大家说: John long: Sorry. I suspect there is much free info on the internet. Visit www.rspa.com/spi and look under OO testing.(2002/01/10 22:37)
netd对rogerpressman说: Some bad habits of the staff can have negative effect on software process improvement, how can we avoid that or change that?(2002/01/10 22:37)
qlw5对大家说: www.rspa.com is good place for you to find good templates(2002/01/10 22:37)
zik进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:38)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: Yes, but only if you recognize that it must be applied in a way that will NOT slow thingsdo
wn. Therefore, it must be adpted to the smaller project.(2002/01/10 22:38)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:40)
anon离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:40)
qlw5对大家说: I my experience, small project can SPTO a project less than a large project, something like size can be tracked longer than a month, sometimes the size is tracked only(2002/01/10 22:40)
umlchina对大家说: test(2002/01/10 22:40)
john long微笑着对大家说: thanks, Dear rogerpressman, And I am in trobule that when I use Rose, I find it hardly works well,maybe I can't catch uml's soul(2002/01/10 22:41)
qlw5对大家说: once in a small project,do
you think it's probably? ordo
you track size in your project?(2002/01/10 22:41)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:41)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sorry, SPTO?(2002/01/10 22:41)
qlw5对大家说: Software Project tracking and oversight ( a CMM term)(2002/01/10 22:42)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.Any advise for a practitioner?Hard work,think deeply?(2002/01/10 22:42)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, Which is the direction of SE, Management of Techniques?(2002/01/10 22:43)
vickyday对大家说: If only it helps, u can choose the frequency and the method I think.(2002/01/10 22:43)
netd对rogerpressman说: Some bad habits of the staff can have negative effect on software process improvement, how can we avoid that or change that?(2002/01/10 22:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: In some ways, its more importahnt to SPTO a smaller project. Reason, small variances in timeine schedule can throw the project off scehdule in unrecoverable ways.(2002/01/10 22:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: Therefore, it's necessary to know when things are slipping asap.(2002/01/10 22:43)
wu_hao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:44)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
U think of ISO9000 2000version?(2002/01/10 22:44)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:46)
rogerpressman对大家说: vicyday: each of the process/quality models have merits and problems. The ISO 9000 approach isdo
cumentation heavy, butdo
es requires continual auiting (a good idea).(2002/01/10 22:46)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:46)
vickyday对rogerpressman说:do
u run into this kind of occasion: the schedule the customs ask for is far beyond the actual baseline u can afford? and howdo
u manage it?(2002/01/10 22:46)
goldarcher离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:46)
rogerpressman对大家说: Wedo
n't see it applied too often in the software realm in the USA.(2002/01/10 22:46)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman, I guess PSP and TSP would be help to SPTO,right? ?(2002/01/10 22:47)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, In US, is there more small projects or large projects?(2002/01/10 22:47)
rogerpressman对大家说: javour" the practitioner should work to understand more about SE. The average practitioner is not familar with good methods for analysis, design and testing.(2002/01/10 22:48)
qlw5对大家说: Dear seeseax, PSP and TSP willdo
good to SPTO, but it is the responsibiulity of project manager(2002/01/10 22:48)
rogerpressman对大家说: The most important(2002/01/10 22:49)
derta进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
vickyday对大家说: sometimes I got puzzled by the techiniques learned from the books about the SE. I think if it's too delicate, it will be hard to populize for the engineers wont have too(2002/01/10 22:50)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
rogerpressman对大家说: PSP and TSP use a different approach to SPTO. It is generally the individuals responsibility to measure and track progress. However, these metrics can be reported for cen(2002/01/10 22:50)
3328749进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
derta进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
vickyday对大家说: much time to get familiar with it(2002/01/10 22:50)
vickyday对大家说: sometimes I got puzzled by the techiniques learned from the books about the SE. I think if it's too delicate, it will be hard to populize for the engineers wont have too(2002/01/10 22:51)
vickyday对大家说: much time to get familiar with it(2002/01/10 22:51)
emoto进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:51)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Will formal method be the future of the software engineering?(2002/01/10 22:51)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Will formal method be the future of the software engineering?(22:51)(2002/01/10 22:51)
rogerpressman对大家说: Vickyday: I agree. SEs have little time to learn new things and less time to apply them rigorously. Yet, to be successful, we should apply effective methods.(2002/01/10 22:52)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
think about this?(2002/01/10 22:52)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: I agree with you Dr. Rogerpressman(2002/01/10 22:52)
rogerpressman对大家说: Maybe the best approach is to learn and few good methods and then
apply them well.(2002/01/10 22:52)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: So there must be someone to learn and choose for the SEs?(2002/01/10 22:53)
mhuang对大家说: what is the most important thing to apply PSP/TSP in a application development?(2002/01/10 22:53)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: No, FM will not be the future. Altho FM are very powerful, they are simply too difficult for most SEs to apply effectively.(2002/01/10 22:53)
rogerpressman对大家说: However, they may be used in particularly critical apps.(2002/01/10 22:53)
mhuang对大家说: what is the most important thing to apply PSP/TSP in a application development?(2002/01/10 22:54)
rogerpressman对大家说: vickyday: SE should learn and choose for themselves.(2002/01/10 22:54)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, may I ask you that if you are asked to design a MIS system which method will you use, UML?(2002/01/10 22:54)
xchyj离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:55)
seeseax对mhuang说: time control , I guess(2002/01/10 22:55)
3328749进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:55)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: Today, UML has become the analysis/design approach of choice. However, it would depend on the characteristics of the MIS system(2002/01/10 22:55)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:55)
rogerpressman对大家说: Remember, the method is important, but a discipline approach to analysis and design is more important.(2002/01/10 22:55)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Thanks(2002/01/10 22:55)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Is system threoa important to SE and practitioner?(2002/01/10 22:56)
mhuang对大家说: to seeseax: why not the estimation of time and size? it is most difficult(2002/01/10 22:56)
rogerpressman对大家说: javour: threoa?(2002/01/10 22:57)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear Rogerpressman, Whydo
you think FM can not used widely, the tools, IDE or something else
?(2002/01/10 22:57)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear Rogerpressman, Whydo
you think FM can not used widely, the tools, IDE or something else
?(22:57)(2002/01/10 22:58)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: Dr. Rogerpressman, howdo
you mean the characteristics of the MIS system?(2002/01/10 22:58)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: primary reason is that most SEsdo
not have sufficient background and are unwilling/unable to learn. Please understand that FM are VERY powerful,(2002/01/10 22:58)
rogerpressman对大家说: but I honestlydo
not thing they will everdo
minate our SE work.(2002/01/10 22:58)
yin_feng对qlw5说: what is FM? thanks(2002/01/10 22:59)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Is knowage of system important to SE and practitioner?((2002/01/10 22:59)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Aren't the priciples built and asked by the organization? It's said No changes will be taken automaticly.(2002/01/10 22:59)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: So , if the Tools are powerful enough,do
you agree that we can use FM other tranditional Progamming Language?(2002/01/10 23:00)
seeseax对mhuang说: yes, including time estimation,plan and track.... you can read <Introduction to the personal software process>, Chinese version has come out. writen by Watts S. Humphrey(2002/01/10 23:00)
qlw5对yin_feng说: Formal method(2002/01/10 23:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: FM = formal methods(2002/01/10 23:00)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:01)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:01)
rogerpressman对大家说: javoar: Yes! understanding the system put the software into context, defines appropeiate external interfacts, and often dictate architecture.(2002/01/10 23:01)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Aren't the priciples built and asked by the organization? It's said No changes will be taken automaticly(2002/01/10 23:01)
mhuang对大家说: to seeseax: very thanks(2002/01/10 23:01)
rogerpressman对大家说: Vicyday: thatdo
es not mean that an individual cannot learn new things and apply them within the principles setdo
wn by the organization.(2002/01/10 23:02)
3328749对rogerpressman说: Mr rogerpressman,there are so many concepts and methods about SE. To learn SE, what should I learn first?(2002/01/10 23:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear Rogerpressman, Howdo
you think about Code constructuon and Detail design? are they the same for some project?(2002/01/10 23:03)
seeseax对mhuang说: you are welcome, it's Chinese name: 个体软件过程，人民邮电出版社(2002/01/10 23:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear mhuang, I prefer your reading the English version(2002/01/10 23:04)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:06)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: In the modern context, coding and DD are often one in the same. An older view is to consder coding as a mechansitic process, but today, code and DD are often combin(2002/01/10 23:06)
mum进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:06)
vickyday对大家说: Why english version?do
nt U think it's quick to get understood?(2002/01/10 23:06)
seeseax对qlw5说: Is there English version of that book in China now?(2002/01/10 23:07)
qlw5对大家说: Dear Drogerpressman, Thanks,do
you mean the modern design based on RAD?(2002/01/10 23:07)
qlw5对大家说: Dear Drogerpressman, Thanks,do
you mean the modern design based on RAD?(23:07)(2002/01/10 23:07)
netd对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about the communication in software process? Is talking more important thando
cument?(2002/01/10 23:07)
qlw5对大家说: seeseax, I think www.sei.cmu.edu will provide you a good tutorial(2002/01/10 23:08)
netd对rogerpressman说: Which is more important, talking directly ordo
cument?(2002/01/10 23:08)
seeseax微笑着对qlw5说: thanks so much(2002/01/10 23:08)
brook0344对大家说: or a formal meeting for communication?(2002/01/10 23:08)
rogerpressman对大家说: netd: Both are important. Today, we demphasize paperdo
cuments and try to builddo
cumentation into the workproducts =that are created. Talking (via effective meeting and(2002/01/10 23:09)
rogerpressman对大家说: reviews is very important. SE involves people and people must communicate to be effective.(2002/01/10 23:09)
john long对大家说: Dear Drogerpressman, though it's out of scope of this chat, but i still very long for asking a question followed like this:How Can We Use OO Method In A System Test?(2002/01/10 23:10)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:11)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: No. what I mean is the modern view of SE. The design approach can encompass any recognized method.(2002/01/10 23:11)
seeseax进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:11)
go4all2000进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:11)
dzxing进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:12)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Could u recommand us some material about FP estimate?(2002/01/10 23:12)
jameshwoo进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:13)
rogerpressman对大家说: john long: There are technical called intercall test case design that are part of system testing. I can't describe here but they make use of usecases, behavioral models a(2002/01/10 23:13)
rogerpressman对大家说: and other mechanisms.(2002/01/10 23:13)
qlw5对大家说: Thanks Rogerpressman, Howdo
you think about aspect-orientated Programming(AOP),do
you think it's important to some extend?(2002/01/10 23:13)
siralos进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:14)
3328749进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:14)
rogerpressman对大家说: vickyday. There is a wide array of info a FP avaliable on the internet. See www.rspa.com/spi and llok under process metrics and project management as a starting point.(2002/01/10 23:14)
mum对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, Howdo
you think about the difference between small project and big project? let's say 3-5 developers on small one a, and 50 developer in a larger pro(2002/01/10 23:14)
slob进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:15)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:15)
rogerpressman对大家说: mum: There are substantial differences -- in communication, in planning, in coordination, in measurement, in team structure, in methodolgy, in SQA, in comtrol ...(2002/01/10 23:15)
slob进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:15)
qlw5对大家说: slob, how are you?(2002/01/10 23:16)
slob对大家说: hi, i am just back from lab, hehe(2002/01/10 23:16)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: I'm only begin
ning my study of AOP, so I'll reserve comment until another time(2002/01/10 23:17)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: I once followed ur book(SE ,4th) to try a FP estimate for one module, but find hard to decide for the value of actors.(2002/01/10 23:17)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: factors.(2002/01/10 23:17)
slob进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:18)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: And the assessor of CMMdo
nt agree that we have performed FP estimate for Size estimate though we finally got a result.(2002/01/10 23:18)
rogerpressman对大家说: vicky: That is a problem. FP demands some subjective evaluation of the factors. There are more complete and detailed guides fordo
ing this than my book. See www.fpug.org(2002/01/10 23:18)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, If I say SW CMM v1.1 will die in the coming 2~3 years,do
you agree?(2002/01/10 23:18)
dzxing进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:18)
seeseax离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:19)
qlw5对大家说: Dear vickyday, FP is rather hard for everyone to understand(2002/01/10 23:19)
netd对rogerpressman说: rogerpressman, what is the best way to accumulate the knowledge of SE?(2002/01/10 23:19)
qlw5对大家说: Slob, how about Tang yi, are you fine?(2002/01/10 23:20)
dfhprjz进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
jameshwoo离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
vickyday对qlw5说: Could u give me advice where to start from?(2002/01/10 23:20)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: In SE things never die, they simply slowly fade away It is likely that CMM v1.1 will fade as CMMI gains prominence.(2002/01/10 23:20)
qlw5对大家说: Dear vickyday, the FP method is not free one, you will have to search internet to find some free material and course, good luck(2002/01/10 23:21)
netd对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think the importance of the industrial background when you develop an enterprise application software?(2002/01/10 23:21)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: I tried for the fpug , but the web site seems not active.(2002/01/10 23:22)
xuefg对rogerpressman说: how are thinking for C#?(2002/01/10 23:22)
rogerpressman对大家说: netd: good books. also try www.swebok.org which cover the SE body of knowledge. Also try www.rspa.com/spi for resources.(2002/01/10 23:22)
qlw5对大家说: Dear Rogerpressman, I agree with u, in my opinion SW CMM v 1.1 will be faded soon:--)(2002/01/10 23:22)
3328749对rogerpressman说: Mr rogerpressman. What are you working on ? In US software corporations, what SE methods are used most popularly?(2002/01/10 23:22)
rogerpressman对大家说: vickyday:do
a search on the FP user group. They should have asite.(2002/01/10 23:23)
qlw5对大家说: vickyday, it is not free site(2002/01/10 23:23)
rogerpressman对大家说: 3328749: UNL is the most active methodology area at the moment. in addition component-based methods and web-engineering are active. I'm working with clients on process(2002/01/10 23:24)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Thanks a lot. Maybe my company will arrange a training for FP for the size estimate is the main problem in our CMM assessment.(2002/01/10 23:24)
rogerpressman对大家说: netd: very important. Business knowedge is critical. It helps in requirements gathering and in communication.(2002/01/10 23:24)
siltboy进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:25)
vickyday对qlw5说: Thanks a lot. and I think we can communicate more if U r free.(2002/01/10 23:25)
qlw5对大家说: Rogerpressman, What is the relationship between component based Analysis and Design and OOAD ?(2002/01/10 23:25)
qlw5对大家说: vickyday, you will be charged a lot(2002/01/10 23:26)
vickyday对qlw5说: qlw, U r scaring me.(2002/01/10 23:27)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:27)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: OOAD assumes (at least to some extent that the SE will be creating the appropriate classes or accessing them from an exsting in house library. CBSE assume access to(2002/01/10 23:27)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.In your view,what is system?(2002/01/10 23:27)
rogerpressman对大家说: commerically available components. However, at the core there are only subtle differences.(2002/01/10 23:28)
qlw5对大家说: vickyday,do
not worry! but it's really(2002/01/10 23:29)
rogerpressman对大家说: javaor : a collection of interrelated elements that work together to meet the needs of some customer. The customer can be a person, a group, a machine or another system.(2002/01/10 23:29)
rogerpressman对大家说: Not a formal defintition(2002/01/10 23:29)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Thanks a lot again. For it's ur book of SE(esp. the intro of urself) that light my fire of interest for SE and now I become a career SE professional. I would like to go(2002/01/10 23:29)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:30)
rogerpressman对大家说: All: Ido
have another meeting in 15 minutes, so it may be a good idea to end our chat. I enjoyed it and apologize for my typos. Best of luck to all of you! And thanks.(2002/01/10 23:30)
qlw5对大家说: Thanks Rogerpressman, you give us a lot of new ideas(2002/01/10 23:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: best wishes to you, dr. pressman(2002/01/10 23:31)
netd对rogerpressman说: Thank you,Dr rogerpressman.You helped us much!(2002/01/10 23:31)
yin_feng对大家说: Dr.Thank you very much!(2002/01/10 23:31)
mum进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:31)
mum对大家说: thank Rogerpressman and have a great day!(2002/01/10 23:31)
oysterlqd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:31)
oysterlqd对大家说: thx(2002/01/10 23:31)
brook0344对大家说: thank you(2002/01/10 23:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: the exit button is at bottom-right(2002/01/10 23:31)
mhuang对大家说: thank you so much(2002/01/10 23:32)
yin_feng对rogerpressman说: nice to meet you(2002/01/10 23:32)
mhuang离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:32)
yin_feng对rogerpressman说: 再见(2002/01/10 23:32)
qlw5对大家说: Sorry, umlchina, I come late, because someone want to make me drunk(2002/01/10 23:32)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Thanks,Dr Pressman.Nice to meet you.(2002/01/10 23:32)
umlchina对qlw5说: never mind(2002/01/10 23:33)
yin_feng离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:33)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Thank you and wish to see you again.(2002/01/10 23:33)
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北京时间2002年1月10日（星期四）晚上21:30-23:30
嘉宾：Roser S．Pressman博士是软件工程领域国际知名的咨询专家和作者，R.S. Pressman &
Associates, Inc的创始人，已有超过30年的产业经验，主要从事工程产品软件和系统软件的开发技术工作和管理工作。 作为产业的实践者和管理者，Pressman博土主要从事的是航空航天应用中高级工程和制造的CAD/CAM系统的开发，他也从事科学及系统程序设计方面的工作。 除了他的产业经验之外，Pressman博士还是BridgePort大学计算机工程系的兼职教授和该大学的计算机辅助设计和制造中心的主任。 Pressman博士是杂志American Programmer（美国程序员）和 IEEE Software（IEEE软件）的编委，是IEEE Software的Manager（管理员）专栏的编辑。他还是ACM、IEEE、Tau Beta Pi、 Phi Kappa Phi、Eta Kappa Nu和Pi Tau Sigma的会员。
Pressman博士著有6本书籍，其中最著名的是已经发行了20多年的“Software Engineering: A Practitioner's Approach”，此书被全世界广泛使用为软件工程教材，最新版为第五版。第五版影印本由清华大学出版社发行，第四版中文译本“软件工程--实践者的研究方法”由机械工业出版社发行。
交流重点：软件工程，软件过程改进...
主持人：钱五哥
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
以往聊天实录
http://www.umlchina.com/Chat/Newindex1.htm
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现场图片
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rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:21)
csliuyb对大家说: hello roger(2002/01/10 21:22)
seeseax对大家说: not as many persons as I imagine(2002/01/10 21:22)
rogerpressman对大家说: Hello all. I'm a little early!(2002/01/10 21:22)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Hello! R U the one we are waiting for?(2002/01/10 21:22)
umlchina对大家说: hello(2002/01/10 21:22)
umlchina对大家说: hello(2002/01/10 21:23)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾到了(2002/01/10 21:23)
brook0344对大家说: Ido
not get anything to ask,i just want to get some useful idea(2002/01/10 21:23)
umlchina对大家说: 大家欢迎(2002/01/10 21:23)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: hello!(2002/01/10 21:23)
seeseax对大家说: welcome so much!!(2002/01/10 21:23)
goaha进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:23)
luv对大家说: hello Master(2002/01/10 21:23)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: How are you, Dr. Pressman?(2002/01/10 21:23)
mhuang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:23)
brook0344对大家说: anybody the same as me?(2002/01/10 21:23)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:24)
h_gaofeng对大家说: hello,rogerpressman(2002/01/10 21:24)
javaor进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:24)
brook0344对大家说: hello,master(2002/01/10 21:25)
oysterlqd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:25)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sorry, My server is acting strangly.do
you know what Murphy's law is
(2002/01/10 21:25)siltboy进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:25)
rogerpressman对大家说:do
es anyone have any question of software engineering?(2002/01/10 21:25)
mhuang对大家说: hello everybody(2002/01/10 21:25)
csliuyb对大家说: Dr Pressman, In your opinion, what is the relationship between programing and software engineering?(2002/01/10 21:26)
seeseax微笑着对rogerpressman说: could u please explain(2002/01/10 21:26)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:26)
xuefg对大家说: good night!(2002/01/10 21:26)
h_gaofeng对xuefg说: who are you(2002/01/10 21:26)
mhuang对csliuyb说: maby is is a big topic(2002/01/10 21:27)
xuefg对大家说: i am a programmer(2002/01/10 21:27)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about XP?(2002/01/10 21:27)
csliuyb对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman, In your opinion, what is the relationship between programing and software engineering?(2002/01/10 21:27)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:27)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
derta进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:28)
tsino进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:29)
h_gaofeng对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about RUP and CMM?(2002/01/10 21:29)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾链接有问题，稍等(2002/01/10 21:29)
hyuan66进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:29)
siltboy对umlchina说: I can't say anthing.(2002/01/10 21:29)
rogerpressman对大家说: SE is a discipline that requires a process. Programming is a bit less formal. Both work to accomplish the same thing.(2002/01/10 21:29)
siltboy对umlchina说: sorry,it works.(2002/01/10 21:29)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:30)
skyoldx离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:30)
skyoldx进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:30)
rogerpressman对大家说: Any process model (and the related methods to assess maturity are worthwhile. However, it is important to note that process can be overkill. Every organization must choos(2002/01/10 21:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about XP?((2002/01/10 21:31)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:31)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: eXtreme Programming(2002/01/10 21:31)
rogerpressman对大家说: XP is an excellent idea, but it is NOT a replacement for SE discipline. It is a variant of SE, in my opinion.(2002/01/10 21:31)
zydedueast进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:31)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:32)
h_gaofeng对rogerpressman说: If wedo
n't make request clear,but manager order we must begin
to design and code,whatdo
wedo
?(2002/01/10 21:32)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: how to choose an appropriate process model?(2002/01/10 21:32)
anon进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:32)
atlas_tao对rogerpressman说: what's the position of COM in SE?(2002/01/10 21:32)
tsino离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:32)
brook0344对大家说: yeah,It's not so formal as se(2002/01/10 21:32)
umlchina对大家说: 提问用蓝色(2002/01/10 21:32)
rogerpressman对大家说: You must understand requirements, but there are many ways todo
this. One is to prototype. that satisfied the manager, but also gets you info(2002/01/10 21:33)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:33)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.Do you think J2EE is better than .NET in MIS(2002/01/10 21:33)
vickyday离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:33)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: how to choose an appropriate process model for a team or a project?(2002/01/10 21:33)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:33)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:34)
netd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:34)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Could you give us some direction about software size estimate?(2002/01/10 21:34)
wenjiamin进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:34)
rogerpressman对大家说: Choosing the right process model requires a knowledge of the people on the team, the nature of the project and many other factors. Visit http://www.rspa.com/apm(2002/01/10 21:34)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: I have a fact question. A is a class,B is anther.But A is used in B's funciton.How to describe the relation?(2002/01/10 21:34)
qlw5对大家说: helloe everyone, sorry for my late(2002/01/10 21:34)
h_gaofeng对rogerpressman说: When we begin
to program,we should get rid off prototype or not?(2002/01/10 21:34)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Could you give us some direction about software size estimate?(2002/01/10 21:34)
openeyes进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:35)
liuzhiming进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:35)
zhangqike进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:35)
rogerpressman对大家说: Software size: There are two approaches. One is LOC counting. Today, this is widely used bu suspect.(2002/01/10 21:35)
rogerpressman对大家说: The other is FP. This is not easily applied in engineering-type apps, but can be useful in IT apps(2002/01/10 21:36)
qlw5对大家说: dear rogerpressman, whatdo
es suspect mean?(2002/01/10 21:36)
zik进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:36)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:36)
xuefg微笑着对qlw5说: 请问你的主页没有了吗？我怎么上不去？(2002/01/10 21:36)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: But how to estimate more effectively?(2002/01/10 21:36)
xchyj进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:37)
qlw5对大家说: 主页依然存在,不过服务器限制了IP(2002/01/10 21:37)
rogerpressman对大家说: ISuspect means that it's difficult to determine what a LOC is in many modern languages (e.g., visula app development). However, it can be used effectively, if proper conv(2002/01/10 21:37)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: What’s the next generation UML, what's new it will bring to us?(2002/01/10 21:37)
rogerpressman对大家说: To estimate effectively, you must develop estimates in more than one way. You then
reconcile the different estimates.(2002/01/10 21:37)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:38)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: We are using DELphi method to make the results more creditable(2002/01/10 21:38)
sun221进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:38)
xuefg微笑着对qlw5说: 怎么上？(2002/01/10 21:38)
qlw5对大家说: [to jameshwoo]我不是今天的guest,不过希望你课程和实践结合紧密(2002/01/10 21:38)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: But FP sounds like too delicate and complex(2002/01/10 21:38)
rogerpressman对大家说: UML is an important analysis and design approach. Altho it's used in may placed, there are many more SEs whodo
not use it at all. Before we worry about the next generati(2002/01/10 21:38)
goldarcher进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:39)
rogerpressman对大家说: Before we worry about the next generation, I'd like to see widerusage of the current model(2002/01/10 21:39)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: I am reading your book <<Software Engineering>> 5th,any advice about your book?(2002/01/10 21:39)
rogerpressman对大家说: Re my book: it's very long
. Pick and choose the info you need. Also visit the web site.(2002/01/10 21:40)csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:40)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:40)
xuefg微笑着对rogerpressman说: how are you thank about cmm?(2002/01/10 21:40)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说:do
you think a person mainly having mechanical engineering background may become a good software engineering professional?(2002/01/10 21:40)
rogerpressman对大家说: The CMM is a worthwhile process model, but it is NOT a religion. You must apply it with common sense.(2002/01/10 21:41)
zik对rogerpressman说: How about Rational Unified Process?(2002/01/10 21:41)
vickyday对rogerpressman说:do
u think the tools developed by Rational willdo
great help to the engineering of the process?(2002/01/10 21:41)
qlw5对大家说: Dear jameshwoo,do
yo uthink CMM is applicable for most project, which project type is the most suitable?(2002/01/10 21:42)
rogerpressman对大家说: Many year ago, as a young man, my first engineering degree was in ME. What a coincidence!!(2002/01/10 21:42)
y_z进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:42)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think test in software engineering? and now ,whatdo
the American Companies test their product?(2002/01/10 21:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: The CMM is applicable to all projects. However, it may be overkill for some rapid response projects and smaller projects(2002/01/10 21:43)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: I think testing is very important in future.(2002/01/10 21:43)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman,do
you think new project can use CMM Model?(2002/01/10 21:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: Testing is the weakest of all SE disciplines, yet is is the activity that absorbs the most time. We need good strategies and very good tactics.(2002/01/10 21:44)
netd对rogerpressman说:do
you think software engineering really can solve the problem of software?(2002/01/10 21:44)
longzhifang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:44)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: sorry, Ido
not know who is jameshwoo?(2002/01/10 21:44)
rogerpressman对大家说: A new project can use the CMM model.(2002/01/10 21:44)
vickyday对rogerpressman说:do
u think the tools developed by Rational willdo
great help to the engineering of the process?(2002/01/10 21:44)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Now,Ido
n't know how todo
a good thing in OOT.(2002/01/10 21:45)
xuefg微笑着对rogerpressman说: now can i thank that CMM is not suit smaller projects?(2002/01/10 21:45)
siltboy进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:45)
detective进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:45)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:45)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: however Ido
not think pure new project can use CMM, the reason it that it is not repeatable?(2002/01/10 21:45)
rogerpressman对大家说: Rational tools are extremely useful. The add to the SEs insight. But it is more important the the SE himself/herself understand good practices.(2002/01/10 21:45)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Can you give some advices?(2002/01/10 21:45)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Can you give some advices in OO Testing?(2002/01/10 21:46)
mhuang对大家说: howdo
you think about the importance regarding a architecture or infrastructure to an application development?(2002/01/10 21:46)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:47)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: Accoding to Jacobson's talking,in the future the analysis will take the larest part of the whole process ,how about ur think?(2002/01/10 21:47)
rogerpressman对大家说: OO testing is different than conventional testing. See my book, chapter 23 for a complete discussion.(2002/01/10 21:47)
sun221进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:47)
brook0344对大家说: hi,whatdo
es the key "smaller projects" in your opinion?(2002/01/10 21:47)
brook0344对大家说: mean?(2002/01/10 21:47)
atlas_tao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:47)
atlas_tao对rogerpressman说: Whatdo
you think about MS COM?(2002/01/10 21:47)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: And I can't get difference of OO Intergration Test and Unit Test. Howdo
you think?(2002/01/10 21:47)
rogerpressman对大家说: Architecture has become one of the most important design ideas. Infrastruture depends on good architecture.(2002/01/10 21:48)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: the same as RUP says?(2002/01/10 21:48)
csliuyb对大家说: Could you tell me what kind of aspectsdo
es the SE research efforts interested in now?(2002/01/10 21:48)
jeffray进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:49)
rogerpressman对大家说: In general "Smaller projects" involve 2 - 3 people for no more than 1 to 2 months and are NOT business critical.(2002/01/10 21:49)
oldblue进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:49)
netd对rogerpressman说: Whatdo
se Infrastructure means? Can you give me an example to explain the difference of infrastructure and architecture?(2002/01/10 21:49)
brook0344对大家说: 好的(2002/01/10 21:49)
rogerpressman对大家说: You question on OO testing are good one, but are beyond the scope of a chat. See my book, where your question is answered.(2002/01/10 21:50)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, By my experience, I found out that although CMM is a general approach, it is actually based on waterfall lifecycle model, what is your opinion?(2002/01/10 21:50)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:50)
rogerpressman对大家说: Stated very simply, architecture describes the relationship among processing and data components in a system, how they communicate and how they interact.(2002/01/10 21:50)
jeffray对大家说: hi I am coming(2002/01/10 21:51)
mhuang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:51)
mhuang对大家说: will you use a free and open source infrastructure in your project?(2002/01/10 21:51)
rogerpressman对大家说: Infrastructure defines the support systems that enable the software to work (e.g., operation systems, external components, etc.(2002/01/10 21:51)
siltboy对rogerpressman说: Thank you very much!(2002/01/10 21:51)
liyajia129进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:52)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: Dear Pressman,do
you have any opinion on educating of software engineering, especially in china?(2002/01/10 21:52)
rogerpressman对大家说: Ido
n't agree that the CMMis based on the waterfall. It defines those aspects of process that should exist in every software organization.(2002/01/10 21:52)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:52)
jeffray对rogerpressman说: hi ,I am one of your older readers
(2002/01/10 21:52)csliuyb对大家说: Could you tell me what kind of aspectsdo
es the SE research efforts interested in now?(2002/01/10 21:53)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about PSP (personal software process)?(2002/01/10 21:53)
rogerpressman对大家说: SE education is always a challengfe. It is important to get a good background in computer science, to get pactical experience, and to learn how to work as a team.(2002/01/10 21:53)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: a question about LINUX,how about your think of LINUX to used in important server,such as DB server(2002/01/10 21:54)
y_z对rogerpressman说: Is Rational tools good at real time area?(2002/01/10 21:54)
rogerpressman对大家说: Humphrey's work on PSP and TSP are excellent. Ido
believe however, that a great amount of effort (by the SE) are required to apply PSP properly.(2002/01/10 21:54)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.How can ado
main professioner to be helpful to SE?Use UML?any advise is expected.(2002/01/10 21:54)
rogerpressman对大家说: If the efort is applied, the results are very good.(2002/01/10 21:54)
jeffray对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about extreme programming(XP)?(2002/01/10 21:55)
siltboy对rogerpressman说:do
you think the software reuse is related with software complex ?(2002/01/10 21:55)
rogerpressman对大家说: SE research today focuses on componet-based development, formal methods and many other areas.(2002/01/10 21:55)
liyajia129进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:55)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: I agree with you, but CMM need plans, but plans is only applicable while the projectdo
not change often(2002/01/10 21:55)
liyajia129对rogerpressman说: a question about RUP ?(2002/01/10 21:55)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:56)
csliuyb对大家说: but as post graduate students just finished 4 years of studying, how can they gether the experience?(2002/01/10 21:56)
sun221进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:56)
rogerpressman对大家说: CMM implies that planning is necessary, but thatdo
esn't mean that we can't change the plans as we learn more.(2002/01/10 21:56)
forestinnorway进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:57)
jameshwoo对csliuyb说: I agree with you.(2002/01/10 21:57)
wenjiamin进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:57)
wenjiamin对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about XP and RUP?(2002/01/10 21:57)
rogerpressman对大家说: Software resue should REDUCE software complexity. However, this assume that the resuable compoents are well designed, well tested and appropriate for the project.(2002/01/10 21:57)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 21:57)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: I think SE is quite a practical subject.If I want to pusue my study in USA for SE, could u give me some advice?(2002/01/10 21:57)
y_z对rogerpressman说: Is Rational tools good at real time area? Or Rhapsody is better.(2002/01/10 21:57)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Too many changes means that we need aonther plan, which implies a new development model, CMM is developmented 10 years ago, why we must use it?(2002/01/10 21:58)
Charity_Zhou对rogerpressman说: all of us know LINUX is maintanced by people all around the world, how about this model of software development(2002/01/10 21:58)
rogerpressman对大家说: There are many universities in the USA that have SE curricula. Use the internet to find those that have programs of interest.(2002/01/10 21:58)
wenjiamin对rogerpressman说: I think XP is equal to confusion ,and you ?(2002/01/10 21:59)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Charity_Zhou, you can find many development model in the internet, the SCM is strong inside the open source development(2002/01/10 21:59)
jameshwoo对大家说: also care about MIT's action.(2002/01/10 21:59)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: I never said that you MUST use the CMM. What you shoulddo
is to apply the spirit of the CMM and adapt it to build a process that is right for your company.(2002/01/10 22:00)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:00)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: If u r the professor, what would u expect for me to be ur student? If I have CS background and some working experience for SE, is that OK?(2002/01/10 22:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: If XP is used to avoid discipline, I agree that it can cause confustion. However, if XP is used in a disciplined manner it can be quite effective.(2002/01/10 22:00)
wenjiamin进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: I particularly like the pair programming concept in XP.(2002/01/10 22:01)
vickyday对jameshwoo说: Whatdo
u mean as MIT's action?(2002/01/10 22:01)
overflight进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:01)
jameshwoo对大家说: Open Course Library Plan.(2002/01/10 22:01)
rogerpressman对大家说: I'm no long a professor, but I was one for a long time. I expected hard work and good thinking from all my students.(2002/01/10 22:01)
liyajia129进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:01)
docsa进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:02)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:02)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:02)
fcx123对rogerpressman说: the smallest one only have 12 developers.do
you think it is departure of CMM's creator original intention?(2002/01/10 22:02)
fcx123对rogerpressman说: We know, CMM theory are very important to large software enterprises! But as I know, in the software enterprises which ware certified CMM level 2 or above,(2002/01/10 22:02)
jameshwoo对大家说: hard work and good thinking, I agree.(2002/01/10 22:02)
derta对rogerpressman说: Hi,Whatdo
u think about the software development?Are there some good or mixed patterns for SE?(2002/01/10 22:02)
derta对rogerpressman说: Will it go some extremes? One hand,big companies leading,such as IBM;another hand, open source code prggramming,such as something for Linux.(2002/01/10 22:03)
caozq进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, I know clearly that CMM is based upon practices, however SW-CMM v1.1 is about 10 years old, although the spirit is still there, the practice has been(2002/01/10 22:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: changed(2002/01/10 22:03)
silentsnake进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:04)
vickyday对qlw5说: But the general principles wont change.(2002/01/10 22:04)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear jameshwoo, whatdo
you mean the pattern?(2002/01/10 22:04)
rogerpressman对大家说: Lots of questions
I get the impression that the CMM is a very "hot" topic in China. Remeber that the CMM is not a religion to be applieddogmatically.(2002/01/10 22:05)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: vickyday, no Ido
not think you know about CMM(2002/01/10 22:05)
jameshwoo对vickyday说: They Press their main Course Material to internet. (www.MIT.edu)(2002/01/10 22:05)
rogerpressman对大家说: It is a phiosophy that can be adapted to meet your needs.(2002/01/10 22:05)
Charity_Zhou离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:05)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:05)
greatfox进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:05)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
rogerpressman对大家说: The fact that the CMM is 10+ years olddo
es not invalidate it as a worthwhile philosophy.(2002/01/10 22:06)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
csliuyb对大家说: Dr, pressman, If u r the professor, what knowledge would u expect your student have? or rather what kind of courses they should learn first? as a post graduate student(2002/01/10 22:06)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: General questions on CMM, you can refer to me, I have some experience on CMM(2002/01/10 22:06)
fsbat进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: I am reading Dr.Humphrey's book on PSP, but seems few SE's around usdo
it,do
you have any advice on such situation?any advice on applying PSP and TSP?(2002/01/10 22:06)
xujnfeng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:06)
vickyday对qlw5说: Yes Ido
nt know all of them. But as far as the KPAs we are applying, I think they are useful and wont be outdated.(2002/01/10 22:06)
stoic进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:07)
rogerpressman对大家说: As I mentions PSP and TSP require formal training and then
the discipline to apply the methods. It is also not being used widley in the USA. laziness, I think.(2002/01/10 22:07)
vickyday对qlw5说: Because CMMdo
esnt tell how todo
, but set the aim U must achieve.(2002/01/10 22:07)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear, rogerpressman, but someone, maybe DeMacro or High SmithIIIdo
not agree with CMM, they think CMM is burden to progress, what;s your oppion?(2002/01/10 22:07)
xujnfeng离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:07)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Hi,Dr Pressman.What team or team leader is your expected.(2002/01/10 22:09)
rogerpressman对大家说: Also DeMarco and Highsmith are both friends, I disagree. The CMM is a burden only if it is applied thoughtlessly. If its spirit is applied with commn sense, it can assist(2002/01/10 22:09)
rogerpressman对大家说: It can assist an organization indo
ing good SE work.(2002/01/10 22:09)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:09)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:10)
rogerpressman对大家说: There is an excellent book on Team Leadership by Jerry Weinberg. Title On Becoming a Technical Leader. I recommend it.(2002/01/10 22:10)
atlas_tao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:11)
atlas_tao对rogerpressman说: what's the position of MS COM in SE?(2002/01/10 22:11)
mhuang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:12)
mhuang对大家说: where can we get it?(2002/01/10 22:12)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: Dr. Pressman, you are in a software design team nowadays?(2002/01/10 22:12)
rogerpressman对大家说: MS COM is one of a number of component-based technologies for SE. All attempts to achieve reuse will benefit an organization, as long as good architectural design isdo
ne(2002/01/10 22:12)
greatfox对rogerpressman说: how about you think of msf?(2002/01/10 22:13)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, I think things are changing, for example, Criticle Computer resource are NEVER a KP in CMMI 1.02, while is a KP in SW CMM v 1.1 L2 wht's your opinion(2002/01/10 22:13)
rogerpressman对大家说: Thing are changing. They alwaysdo
. It's reasonable to assume that as the CMMI evolved, there will be changes from the oder CMM. Thatdo
es not invalidate older ideas, it(2002/01/10 22:15)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: what kind of method is suitable for a small~middle project, no business critical, mainly for research and interests ?(2002/01/10 22:15)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:15)
rogerpressman对大家说: It simply means that we learned from past experience and have modified our approach.(2002/01/10 22:15)
atlas_tao对大家说:do
es the architecture design + component-based technologies can achieve success?(2002/01/10 22:15)
brook0344对大家说: sa China has been a country in WTO,What position will American software be on in China,tommorrow?(2002/01/10 22:15)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:16)
vickyday对大家说: What should we learn from the Model? The methodology or all the details?(2002/01/10 22:16)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Thanks, rogerpressman, Can you tell me why CMMI is still not a offcial version?(2002/01/10 22:16)
zik进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:16)
rogerpressman对大家说: Altho I have a high bandwidth connection, my repsonse time is degrading. Not sure why. Please understand delayed responses.(2002/01/10 22:16)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:18)
csliuyb对rogerpressman说: what kind of method is suitable for a small~middle project, no business critical, mainly for research and interests ?((2002/01/10 22:18)
john long进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:18)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman,do
not feel so aggressive
(2002/01/10 22:18)netd对rogerpressman说: I think SE just can REDUCE rather than SOLVE the problems in software development, howdo
you think about that?(2002/01/10 22:18)
vickyday对大家说: The system is abnormal I think.(2002/01/10 22:18)
csliuyb对大家说:
(2002/01/10 22:19)qlw5对大家说: To my opinion, For small Org. the XP is much better than CMM(2002/01/10 22:19)
rogerpressman对大家说: I agree. SE is not a silver bullet. It reduces the problems of software development, it cannot completely eliminate them.(2002/01/10 22:19)
lf168进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:19)
john long微笑着对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, nice to meet you(2002/01/10 22:19)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:19)
fcx123对rogerpressman说: there many good open source about framework of CORBA,ACE+TAO is one of the best frameworks. Can you give us some others ? And how I choose from them?(2002/01/10 22:19)
fsbat离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:20)
huhj_uml离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:20)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:20)
rogerpressman对大家说: Why not combine the best proactices of XP with CMM ideas. Therefore you get good responsiveness and creativity and good quality and discipline.(2002/01/10 22:20)
qlw5对大家说: Dear netd, SE can only solve the problem when there are more support than Finite state machine(2002/01/10 22:21)
goaha离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:21)
netd对rogerpressman说: So is there any ways to completely eliminate the problems?(2002/01/10 22:21)
qlw5对大家说: XP + CMM + adaptive software development is probably a kind of wonderful approach
(2002/01/10 22:22)javaor对rogerpressman说: Software is powerful today!What is the future of SE?Maybe the end user can customer software NOT the engineer.
(2002/01/10 22:22)john long微笑着对大家说: what's the most important thing in Object Oriented Software(2002/01/10 22:23)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sadly, buiding complex systems is difficult. Ido
not believe we will ever completely eliminate the problems. If we did, none of us would have jobs
)(2002/01/10 22:23)coolie2k进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:23)
forestinnorway离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:23)
rogerpressman对大家说: End user computing is good for some things, but SEs will be the ones to build complex systems.(2002/01/10 22:23)
qlw5对大家说: Dear fcx123, ACE+TAO is a good solution, but have you really understand it?(2002/01/10 22:23)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: wonderfull.(2002/01/10 22:23)
skyoldx进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:23)
skyoldx对大家说: what kind of method is suitable for a small~middle project, no business critical, mainly for research and interests(2002/01/10 22:23)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:24)
fcx123对qlw5说: Not Yet!(2002/01/10 22:24)
atlas_tao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:24)
atlas_tao对大家说: which approach will be selected to solve low-level project?(2002/01/10 22:24)
rogerpressman对大家说: Shyoldx: It sounds like an evolutionary process model would be best. The methods depend on the application type and the tools available to you.(2002/01/10 22:24)
qlw5对大家说: Dear fcx123, I just read some part of the code, I found it is one the open src prj with gododo
c.(2002/01/10 22:25)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
brook0344对大家说: HI，问一下，我们这次讨论有一个主题的吗(2002/01/10 22:25)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:25)
rogerpressman对大家说: The most important aspect of OO is to understand the concept of the class and to build meaningful class hierarchies for the problem to be soleved.(2002/01/10 22:25)
csliuyb对rogerpressman说: What is the future development of SE?(2002/01/10 22:25)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
u expect for the industrialization of the Software industry? And what's ur oppion about the role of the SE professionals?(2002/01/10 22:25)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
u expect for the industrialization of the Software industry? And what's ur oppion about the role of the SE professionals?(2002/01/10 22:26)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, howdo
you think the role-based process man. approach rather than activity-based?(2002/01/10 22:26)
rogerpressman对大家说: Many years ago, people talked about "software factories. SE is a human endeavor. It's unliley that it will be "industrialized" any time soon.(2002/01/10 22:26)
fcx123对qlw5说: I hope to use it in my network management system.(2002/01/10 22:26)
dearlan进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:27)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: Ido
n't liker to make those distinctions. Activities must be assigned and roles must be played for effective management. I like both
(2002/01/10 22:27)fcx123对qlw5说: Can you give me some advices about that?(2002/01/10 22:27)
qlw5对大家说: It's major a Corba sys, which can across OS platform(2002/01/10 22:27)
qlw5对大家说: I currently rading a book by Highsmith, it say that WBS can never used in new complex project, why?(2002/01/10 22:28)
luv离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:29)
yin_feng对qlw5说: what is wbs?(2002/01/10 22:29)
vickyday对qlw5说: Maybe for the inovince of the system, U can hardly develop the WBS properly(2002/01/10 22:29)
john long进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:30)
john long微笑着对大家说: sorry ,Dear rogerpressman,I means OOST,In fact, In my company,we are in the primary moment of Object Oriented Software Test,Anddo
you have some wonderful advice for me ?(2002/01/10 22:30)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, I think CMM v 1.1 will be replaced be by CMMi 1.02 technically, butdo
Ddo
not want CMMi, right?(2002/01/10 22:30)
vickyday对大家说: yin_feng:Work Breakdown Structure(2002/01/10 22:30)
qlw5对大家说: Work breakdown structure(2002/01/10 22:30)
fcx123进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:31)
fcx123对qlw5说: I will contact with you later,Ok?(2002/01/10 22:31)
qlw5对大家说: Dear vickyday, WBS is derived by experienced team(2002/01/10 22:31)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:31)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sadly, OOST is beyond the scope of this chat. There are a number of good books that have come out recently, Check amazon.com or other sources.(2002/01/10 22:31)
vickyday对大家说: Dear qlw, u just now mentioned the project is new and complex.(2002/01/10 22:32)
rogerpressman对大家说: Ido
nt agree with highsmith on that, His contention is that all projects must be adaptible and that a WBS is not adaptible.(2002/01/10 22:32)
kenjiang进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:33)
brook0344对大家说: HI，请问这次讨论的主题是什么？(2002/01/10 22:33)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, Thanks(2002/01/10 22:33)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think about UXF (UML eXchange Format ), will it benifit interoperability much as expected?(2002/01/10 22:33)
rogerpressman对大家说: I disagree. You can create a WBS and then
adapt it as the project progresses. Without it, you have no reasonable raodmap.(2002/01/10 22:33)
qlw5对大家说: brook0344, on software process(2002/01/10 22:33)
brook0344对大家说: 哦，知道了(2002/01/10 22:34)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
csliuyb对大家说: 了解了(2002/01/10 22:35)
rogerpressman对大家说: UXF will help. but first, we ned to have more people and organizations using UML on a regular basis.(2002/01/10 22:35)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, However if the requirement are changing much, a static WBS will never be applicable(2002/01/10 22:35)
john long进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
john long微笑着对大家说: oh, My God, Dear rogerpressman,do
you think that I can buy a book of OOST from amazon.com? In fact I can't for I have nodo
llar,and any e-books?(2002/01/10 22:35)
csliuyb进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
qlw5进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:35)
csliuyb对大家说:
(2002/01/10 22:35)javaor进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: I agree. But there is no need for a Static WBS. It can adapt as requirements and the project changes.(2002/01/10 22:36)
oysterlqd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
oysterlqd对大家说: yap,e-books,hoho(2002/01/10 22:36)
luxf001进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:36)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman,do
u think CMM can be used in small projects less than 6 people, and less than 6 months?(2002/01/10 22:36)
rogerpressman对大家说: John long: Sorry. I suspect there is much free info on the internet. Visit www.rspa.com/spi and look under OO testing.(2002/01/10 22:37)
netd对rogerpressman说: Some bad habits of the staff can have negative effect on software process improvement, how can we avoid that or change that?(2002/01/10 22:37)
qlw5对大家说: www.rspa.com is good place for you to find good templates(2002/01/10 22:37)
zik进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:38)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: Yes, but only if you recognize that it must be applied in a way that will NOT slow thingsdo
wn. Therefore, it must be adpted to the smaller project.(2002/01/10 22:38)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:40)
anon离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:40)
qlw5对大家说: I my experience, small project can SPTO a project less than a large project, something like size can be tracked longer than a month, sometimes the size is tracked only(2002/01/10 22:40)
umlchina对大家说: test(2002/01/10 22:40)
john long微笑着对大家说: thanks, Dear rogerpressman, And I am in trobule that when I use Rose, I find it hardly works well,maybe I can't catch uml's soul(2002/01/10 22:41)
qlw5对大家说: once in a small project,do
you think it's probably? ordo
you track size in your project?(2002/01/10 22:41)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:41)
rogerpressman对大家说: Sorry, SPTO?(2002/01/10 22:41)
qlw5对大家说: Software Project tracking and oversight ( a CMM term)(2002/01/10 22:42)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.Any advise for a practitioner?Hard work,think deeply?
(2002/01/10 22:42)qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, Which is the direction of SE, Management of Techniques?(2002/01/10 22:43)
vickyday对大家说: If only it helps, u can choose the frequency and the method I think.(2002/01/10 22:43)
netd对rogerpressman说: Some bad habits of the staff can have negative effect on software process improvement, how can we avoid that or change that?(2002/01/10 22:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: In some ways, its more importahnt to SPTO a smaller project. Reason, small variances in timeine schedule can throw the project off scehdule in unrecoverable ways.(2002/01/10 22:43)
rogerpressman对大家说: Therefore, it's necessary to know when things are slipping asap.(2002/01/10 22:43)
wu_hao进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:44)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
U think of ISO9000 2000version?(2002/01/10 22:44)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:46)
rogerpressman对大家说: vicyday: each of the process/quality models have merits and problems. The ISO 9000 approach isdo
cumentation heavy, butdo
es requires continual auiting (a good idea).(2002/01/10 22:46)
vickyday进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:46)
vickyday对rogerpressman说:do
u run into this kind of occasion: the schedule the customs ask for is far beyond the actual baseline u can afford? and howdo
u manage it?(2002/01/10 22:46)
goldarcher离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:46)
rogerpressman对大家说: Wedo
n't see it applied too often in the software realm in the USA.(2002/01/10 22:46)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman, I guess PSP and TSP would be help to SPTO,right? ?(2002/01/10 22:47)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, In US, is there more small projects or large projects?(2002/01/10 22:47)
rogerpressman对大家说: javour" the practitioner should work to understand more about SE. The average practitioner is not familar with good methods for analysis, design and testing.(2002/01/10 22:48)
qlw5对大家说: Dear seeseax, PSP and TSP willdo
good to SPTO, but it is the responsibiulity of project manager(2002/01/10 22:48)
rogerpressman对大家说: The most important(2002/01/10 22:49)
derta进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
vickyday对大家说: sometimes I got puzzled by the techiniques learned from the books about the SE. I think if it's too delicate, it will be hard to populize for the engineers wont have too(2002/01/10 22:50)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
rogerpressman对大家说: PSP and TSP use a different approach to SPTO. It is generally the individuals responsibility to measure and track progress. However, these metrics can be reported for cen(2002/01/10 22:50)
3328749进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
derta进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:50)
vickyday对大家说: much time to get familiar with it(2002/01/10 22:50)
vickyday对大家说: sometimes I got puzzled by the techiniques learned from the books about the SE. I think if it's too delicate, it will be hard to populize for the engineers wont have too(2002/01/10 22:51)
vickyday对大家说: much time to get familiar with it(2002/01/10 22:51)
emoto进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:51)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Will formal method be the future of the software engineering?(2002/01/10 22:51)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Will formal method be the future of the software engineering?(22:51)(2002/01/10 22:51)
rogerpressman对大家说: Vickyday: I agree. SEs have little time to learn new things and less time to apply them rigorously. Yet, to be successful, we should apply effective methods.(2002/01/10 22:52)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Howdo
think about this?(2002/01/10 22:52)
seeseax对rogerpressman说: I agree with you Dr. Rogerpressman(2002/01/10 22:52)
rogerpressman对大家说: Maybe the best approach is to learn and few good methods and then
apply them well.(2002/01/10 22:52)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: So there must be someone to learn and choose for the SEs?(2002/01/10 22:53)
mhuang对大家说: what is the most important thing to apply PSP/TSP in a application development?(2002/01/10 22:53)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: No, FM will not be the future. Altho FM are very powerful, they are simply too difficult for most SEs to apply effectively.(2002/01/10 22:53)
rogerpressman对大家说: However, they may be used in particularly critical apps.(2002/01/10 22:53)
mhuang对大家说: what is the most important thing to apply PSP/TSP in a application development?(2002/01/10 22:54)
rogerpressman对大家说: vickyday: SE should learn and choose for themselves.(2002/01/10 22:54)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear rogerpressman, may I ask you that if you are asked to design a MIS system which method will you use, UML?(2002/01/10 22:54)
xchyj离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:55)
seeseax对mhuang说: time control , I guess(2002/01/10 22:55)
3328749进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:55)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: Today, UML has become the analysis/design approach of choice. However, it would depend on the characteristics of the MIS system(2002/01/10 22:55)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 22:55)
rogerpressman对大家说: Remember, the method is important, but a discipline approach to analysis and design is more important.(2002/01/10 22:55)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Thanks(2002/01/10 22:55)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Is system threoa important to SE and practitioner?(2002/01/10 22:56)
mhuang对大家说: to seeseax: why not the estimation of time and size? it is most difficult(2002/01/10 22:56)
rogerpressman对大家说: javour: threoa?(2002/01/10 22:57)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear Rogerpressman, Whydo
you think FM can not used widely, the tools, IDE or something else
?(2002/01/10 22:57)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear Rogerpressman, Whydo
you think FM can not used widely, the tools, IDE or something else
?(22:57)(2002/01/10 22:58)
jameshwoo对rogerpressman说: Dr. Rogerpressman, howdo
you mean the characteristics of the MIS system?(2002/01/10 22:58)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: primary reason is that most SEsdo
not have sufficient background and are unwilling/unable to learn. Please understand that FM are VERY powerful,(2002/01/10 22:58)
rogerpressman对大家说: but I honestlydo
not thing they will everdo
minate our SE work.(2002/01/10 22:58)
yin_feng对qlw5说: what is FM? thanks(2002/01/10 22:59)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Is knowage of system important to SE and practitioner?((2002/01/10 22:59)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Aren't the priciples built and asked by the organization? It's said No changes will be taken automaticly.(2002/01/10 22:59)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: So , if the Tools are powerful enough,do
you agree that we can use FM other tranditional Progamming Language?(2002/01/10 23:00)
seeseax对mhuang说: yes, including time estimation,plan and track.... you can read <Introduction to the personal software process>, Chinese version has come out. writen by Watts S. Humphrey(2002/01/10 23:00)
qlw5对yin_feng说: Formal method(2002/01/10 23:00)
rogerpressman对大家说: FM = formal methods(2002/01/10 23:00)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:01)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:01)
rogerpressman对大家说: javoar: Yes! understanding the system put the software into context, defines appropeiate external interfacts, and often dictate architecture.(2002/01/10 23:01)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Aren't the priciples built and asked by the organization? It's said No changes will be taken automaticly(2002/01/10 23:01)
mhuang对大家说: to seeseax: very thanks(2002/01/10 23:01)
rogerpressman对大家说: Vicyday: thatdo
es not mean that an individual cannot learn new things and apply them within the principles setdo
wn by the organization.(2002/01/10 23:02)
3328749对rogerpressman说: Mr rogerpressman,there are so many concepts and methods about SE. To learn SE, what should I learn first?(2002/01/10 23:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear Rogerpressman, Howdo
you think about Code constructuon and Detail design? are they the same for some project?(2002/01/10 23:03)
seeseax对mhuang说: you are welcome, it's Chinese name: 个体软件过程，人民邮电出版社(2002/01/10 23:03)
qlw5对rogerpressman说: Dear mhuang, I prefer your reading the English version(2002/01/10 23:04)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:06)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: In the modern context, coding and DD are often one in the same. An older view is to consder coding as a mechansitic process, but today, code and DD are often combin(2002/01/10 23:06)
mum进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:06)
vickyday对大家说: Why english version?do
nt U think it's quick to get understood?(2002/01/10 23:06)
seeseax对qlw5说: Is there English version of that book in China now?(2002/01/10 23:07)
qlw5对大家说: Dear Drogerpressman, Thanks,do
you mean the modern design based on RAD?(2002/01/10 23:07)
qlw5对大家说: Dear Drogerpressman, Thanks,do
you mean the modern design based on RAD?(23:07)(2002/01/10 23:07)
netd对rogerpressman说: howdo
you think about the communication in software process? Is talking more important thando
cument?(2002/01/10 23:07)
qlw5对大家说: seeseax, I think www.sei.cmu.edu will provide you a good tutorial(2002/01/10 23:08)
netd对rogerpressman说: Which is more important, talking directly ordo
cument?(2002/01/10 23:08)
seeseax微笑着对qlw5说: thanks so much(2002/01/10 23:08)
brook0344对大家说: or a formal meeting for communication?(2002/01/10 23:08)
rogerpressman对大家说: netd: Both are important. Today, we demphasize paperdo
cuments and try to builddo
cumentation into the workproducts =that are created. Talking (via effective meeting and(2002/01/10 23:09)
rogerpressman对大家说: reviews is very important. SE involves people and people must communicate to be effective.(2002/01/10 23:09)
john long对大家说: Dear Drogerpressman, though it's out of scope of this chat, but i still very long for asking a question followed like this:How Can We Use OO Method In A System Test?(2002/01/10 23:10)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:11)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: No. what I mean is the modern view of SE. The design approach can encompass any recognized method.(2002/01/10 23:11)
seeseax进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:11)
go4all2000进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:11)
dzxing进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:12)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Could u recommand us some material about FP estimate?(2002/01/10 23:12)
jameshwoo进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:13)
rogerpressman对大家说: john long: There are technical called intercall test case design that are part of system testing. I can't describe here but they make use of usecases, behavioral models a(2002/01/10 23:13)
rogerpressman对大家说: and other mechanisms.(2002/01/10 23:13)
qlw5对大家说: Thanks Rogerpressman, Howdo
you think about aspect-orientated Programming(AOP),do
you think it's important to some extend?(2002/01/10 23:13)
siralos进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:14)
3328749进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:14)
rogerpressman对大家说: vickyday. There is a wide array of info a FP avaliable on the internet. See www.rspa.com/spi and llok under process metrics and project management as a starting point.(2002/01/10 23:14)
mum对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, Howdo
you think about the difference between small project and big project? let's say 3-5 developers on small one a, and 50 developer in a larger pro(2002/01/10 23:14)
slob进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:15)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:15)
rogerpressman对大家说: mum: There are substantial differences -- in communication, in planning, in coordination, in measurement, in team structure, in methodolgy, in SQA, in comtrol ...(2002/01/10 23:15)
slob进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:15)
qlw5对大家说: slob, how are you?(2002/01/10 23:16)
slob对大家说: hi, i am just back from lab, hehe(2002/01/10 23:16)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: I'm only begin
ning my study of AOP, so I'll reserve comment until another time
(2002/01/10 23:17)vickyday对rogerpressman说: I once followed ur book(SE ,4th) to try a FP estimate for one module, but find hard to decide for the value of actors.(2002/01/10 23:17)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: factors.(2002/01/10 23:17)
slob进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:18)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: And the assessor of CMMdo
nt agree that we have performed FP estimate for Size estimate though we finally got a result.(2002/01/10 23:18)
rogerpressman对大家说: vicky: That is a problem. FP demands some subjective evaluation of the factors. There are more complete and detailed guides fordo
ing this than my book. See www.fpug.org(2002/01/10 23:18)
qlw5对大家说: Dear rogerpressman, If I say SW CMM v1.1 will die in the coming 2~3 years,do
you agree?(2002/01/10 23:18)
dzxing进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:18)
seeseax离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:19)
qlw5对大家说: Dear vickyday, FP is rather hard for everyone to understand(2002/01/10 23:19)
netd对rogerpressman说: rogerpressman, what is the best way to accumulate the knowledge of SE?(2002/01/10 23:19)
qlw5对大家说: Slob, how about Tang yi, are you fine?(2002/01/10 23:20)
dfhprjz进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
jameshwoo离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
vickyday对qlw5说: Could u give me advice where to start from?(2002/01/10 23:20)
xuefg进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:20)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: In SE things never die, they simply slowly fade away
It is likely that CMM v1.1 will fade as CMMI gains prominence.(2002/01/10 23:20)qlw5对大家说: Dear vickyday, the FP method is not free one, you will have to search internet to find some free material and course, good luck(2002/01/10 23:21)
netd对rogerpressman说: Howdo
you think the importance of the industrial background when you develop an enterprise application software?(2002/01/10 23:21)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: I tried for the fpug , but the web site seems not active.(2002/01/10 23:22)
xuefg对rogerpressman说: how are thinking for C#?(2002/01/10 23:22)
rogerpressman对大家说: netd: good books. also try www.swebok.org which cover the SE body of knowledge. Also try www.rspa.com/spi for resources.(2002/01/10 23:22)
qlw5对大家说: Dear Rogerpressman, I agree with u, in my opinion SW CMM v 1.1 will be faded soon:--)(2002/01/10 23:22)
3328749对rogerpressman说: Mr rogerpressman. What are you working on ? In US software corporations, what SE methods are used most popularly?(2002/01/10 23:22)
rogerpressman对大家说: vickyday:do
a search on the FP user group. They should have asite.(2002/01/10 23:23)
qlw5对大家说: vickyday, it is not free site(2002/01/10 23:23)
rogerpressman对大家说: 3328749: UNL is the most active methodology area at the moment. in addition component-based methods and web-engineering are active. I'm working with clients on process(2002/01/10 23:24)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Thanks a lot. Maybe my company will arrange a training for FP for the size estimate is the main problem in our CMM assessment.
(2002/01/10 23:24)rogerpressman对大家说: netd: very important. Business knowedge is critical. It helps in requirements gathering and in communication.(2002/01/10 23:24)
siltboy进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:25)
vickyday对qlw5说: Thanks a lot. and I think we can communicate more if U r free.(2002/01/10 23:25)
qlw5对大家说: Rogerpressman, What is the relationship between component based Analysis and Design and OOAD ?(2002/01/10 23:25)
qlw5对大家说: vickyday, you will be charged a lot(2002/01/10 23:26)
vickyday对qlw5说: qlw, U r scaring me.(2002/01/10 23:27)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:27)
rogerpressman对大家说: qlw5: OOAD assumes (at least to some extent that the SE will be creating the appropriate classes or accessing them from an exsting in house library. CBSE assume access to(2002/01/10 23:27)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Dr Pressman.In your view,what is system?(2002/01/10 23:27)
rogerpressman对大家说: commerically available components. However, at the core there are only subtle differences.(2002/01/10 23:28)
qlw5对大家说: vickyday,do
not worry! but it's really(2002/01/10 23:29)
rogerpressman对大家说: javaor : a collection of interrelated elements that work together to meet the needs of some customer. The customer can be a person, a group, a machine or another system.(2002/01/10 23:29)
rogerpressman对大家说: Not a formal defintition
(2002/01/10 23:29)vickyday对rogerpressman说: Thanks a lot again. For it's ur book of SE(esp. the intro of urself) that light my fire of interest for SE and now I become a career SE professional. I would like to go(2002/01/10 23:29)
rogerpressman进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:30)
rogerpressman对大家说: All: Ido
have another meeting in 15 minutes, so it may be a good idea to end our chat. I enjoyed it and apologize for my typos. Best of luck to all of you! And thanks.(2002/01/10 23:30)
qlw5对大家说: Thanks Rogerpressman, you give us a lot of new ideas(2002/01/10 23:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: best wishes to you, dr. pressman(2002/01/10 23:31)
netd对rogerpressman说: Thank you,Dr rogerpressman.You helped us much!(2002/01/10 23:31)
yin_feng对大家说: Dr.Thank you very much!(2002/01/10 23:31)
mum进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:31)
mum对大家说: thank Rogerpressman and have a great day!(2002/01/10 23:31)
oysterlqd进入聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:31)
oysterlqd对大家说: thx(2002/01/10 23:31)
brook0344对大家说: thank you(2002/01/10 23:31)
umlchina对rogerpressman说: the exit button is at bottom-right(2002/01/10 23:31)
mhuang对大家说: thank you so much(2002/01/10 23:32)
yin_feng对rogerpressman说: nice to meet you(2002/01/10 23:32)
mhuang离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:32)
yin_feng对rogerpressman说: 再见(2002/01/10 23:32)
qlw5对大家说: Sorry, umlchina, I come late, because someone want to make me drunk(2002/01/10 23:32)
javaor对rogerpressman说: Thanks,Dr Pressman.Nice to meet you.
(2002/01/10 23:32)umlchina对qlw5说: never mind(2002/01/10 23:33)
yin_feng离开了聊天室.(2002/01/10 23:33)
vickyday对rogerpressman说: Thank you and wish to see you again.(2002/01/10 23:33)